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Author Topic: Defamation in the stateless society  (Read 18810 times)

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Low-Eight

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Defamation in the stateless society
« on: April 18, 2009, 02:01:42 PM »

I am working on writing a new article for my blog and I would like to hear what you have to say first.  Do slander and Libel laws have any place in a Voluntary Society?


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In law, defamation (also called calumny, libel (for written publications), slander (for spoken word), and vilification) is the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government or nation a negative image. It is usually, but not always,[1] a requirement that this claim be false and that the publication is communicated to someone other than the person defamed (the claimant).
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anarchir

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Re: Defamation in the stateless society
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2009, 02:18:18 PM »

No. If you get caught doing Libel, then it ruins your own reputation. Since your reputation and actions become very important in a society without a government you probably wouldnt want to risk defamation like that.
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Alex Libman

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Re: Defamation in the stateless society
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2009, 04:52:36 PM »

If there was, I'd be suing the pants off the people calling me a crackhead for not supporting the war on drugs.  Etc.
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atomiccat

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Re: Defamation in the stateless society
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2009, 07:48:21 PM »

If there was, I'd be suing the pants off the people calling me a crackhead for not supporting the war on drugs.  Etc.


maybe you should

Ecolitan

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Re: Defamation in the stateless society
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2009, 02:43:15 PM »

In today's legal system you have to prove damages for slander and libel.  If I were on a free market jury I'd award compensation if damages were proven.

For example, Gina has a beauty parlor.  Rachael told all her friends that Gina turned her hair green but in reality Rachael turned her own hair green when she went swimming with her new perm.  5 people testify that they were going to go to Gina's beauty parlor until they heard Rachael's rumor.  If I'm on that jury, I stick it to Rachael good. 
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Alex Libman

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Re: Defamation in the stateless society
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2009, 03:21:34 PM »

How do I prove that people googled my name, found one of the threads here defaming me, and factored that into their decision when they chose not to do business with me?
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Ecolitan

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Re: Defamation in the stateless society
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2009, 03:23:18 PM »

How do I prove that people googled my name, found one of the threads here defaming me, and factored that into their decision when they chose not to do business with me?

The odds seem very much against you there. 

I'd also be willing to award punitive damages if you could show malice.  Like if April were caught bragging about her efforts to destroy your good name based on something she knew was fraudulent.

Again, in your case, pretty tough to prove you didn't mean exactly what you said or that April didn't believe that you meant exactly what you said.  While several people here have supported the idea that you play a character here.  I've never heard it from you.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2009, 03:28:00 PM by Ecolitan »
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kalmia

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Re: Defamation in the stateless society
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2009, 03:32:13 PM »

Read the Free Speech section here:

http://mises.org/books/defending.pdf

Richard Garner

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Re: Defamation in the stateless society
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2009, 04:25:49 PM »

I am working on writing a new article for my blog and I would like to hear what you have to say first.  Do slander and Libel laws have any place in a Voluntary Society?


Quote
In law, defamation (also called calumny, libel (for written publications), slander (for spoken word), and vilification) is the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government or nation a negative image. It is usually, but not always,[1] a requirement that this claim be false and that the publication is communicated to someone other than the person defamed (the claimant).


No. THere should be no libel laws. People do not own their reputations: Reputations are what other people think about you, and you don't own other people's thoughts.
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Richard Garner

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Re: Defamation in the stateless society
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2009, 04:27:40 PM »

If there was, I'd be suing the pants off the people calling me a crackhead for not supporting the war on drugs.  Etc.


There was a British libertarian, Chris Tame, who was head of the Freedom Organisation for the Right To Enjoy Smoking Tobacco (FOREST). A major paper said that he promoted smoking so he sued them for libel.
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Ecolitan

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Re: Defamation in the stateless society
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2009, 04:45:00 PM »

I always thought it was about Force, Fraud and Theft.

Is Fraud no longer a problem with libertarians?
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Richard Garner

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Re: Defamation in the stateless society
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2009, 04:51:12 PM »

I always thought it was about Force, Fraud and Theft.

Is Fraud no longer a problem with libertarians?

Fraud is not the same offense as libel. And, since I anticipate that this is where you are coming from, not all lying is fraud. Fraud is purposefully misleading somebody for financial gain. It occurs when the victim gives up property to the fraud due to being purposefully mislead. Not all lying does this, and libel doesn't, either.
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Ecolitan

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Re: Defamation in the stateless society
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2009, 05:08:59 PM »

I always thought it was about Force, Fraud and Theft.

Is Fraud no longer a problem with libertarians?

Fraud is not the same offense as libel. And, since I anticipate that this is where you are coming from, not all lying is fraud. Fraud is purposefully misleading somebody for financial gain. It occurs when the victim gives up property to the fraud due to being purposefully mislead. Not all lying does this, and libel doesn't, either.

Does it have to be financial gain?  What about to gain a warm fuzzy feeling by seeing someone you dislike suffer?  I don't give a damn what the legal definition is.  That's fraud in my book.  It can reasonably expected that any action a person makes is done for their own benefit, does it really matter if that benefit comes in the form of green pieces of paper?
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Rillion

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Re: Defamation in the stateless society
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2009, 05:53:26 PM »

Does it have to be financial gain?  What about to gain a warm fuzzy feeling by seeing someone you dislike suffer?  I don't give a damn what the legal definition is.  That's fraud in my book.  It can reasonably expected that any action a person makes is done for their own benefit, does it really matter if that benefit comes in the form of green pieces of paper?

Umm, yes.....because otherwise you have an argument for using force against somebody because they hurt someone else's feelings. 
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Richard Garner

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Re: Defamation in the stateless society
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2009, 06:14:50 PM »

I always thought it was about Force, Fraud and Theft.

Is Fraud no longer a problem with libertarians?

Fraud is not the same offense as libel. And, since I anticipate that this is where you are coming from, not all lying is fraud. Fraud is purposefully misleading somebody for financial gain. It occurs when the victim gives up property to the fraud due to being purposefully mislead. Not all lying does this, and libel doesn't, either.

Does it have to be financial gain?  What about to gain a warm fuzzy feeling by seeing someone you dislike suffer?  I don't give a damn what the legal definition is.  That's fraud in my book.  It can reasonably expected that any action a person makes is done for their own benefit, does it really matter if that benefit comes in the form of green pieces of paper?

Financial gain does not have to be monetary gain, but yes, fraud is a variant of theft. If there has been no property transfer, then there has been no fraud.
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