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Author Topic: Cut the IP crap  (Read 24494 times)

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SeanD

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #45 on: January 25, 2012, 04:45:56 PM »

You never had to pay to use Megaupload or Rapidshare.  Content was readily available for free.  What you paid for was bandwidth and faster downloads.  There is a difference.
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Tom Foppiano

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #46 on: January 25, 2012, 06:09:46 PM »

Correlation is not causation.  Maybe the quality of music has gone down, and people are no longer willing to pay $17 for a CD.  Maybe if file sharing didn't exist, they still wouldnt' be buying it at that price.  Maybe there's no place for that on your chart.

As an example, I don't share music (I have, but not in a long time--like the same time I was buying it), and I also haven't been buying it for a long time.  I've purchased something on the order of 500 CDs, including maybe 30 in the last ten years.

Yes, correlation is not causation. You are correct.

But do you understand whats being argued here? What some people are indirectly saying is that monopoly privileges DO NOT increase profits. That is nonsense.

So you can look at the music industry graph and see a dramatic decline in revenue that started around the time of the rise of Napster and tell yourself that it likely has nothing to do with monopoly privileges being eroded. Or you can use economic logic and look at the graph and say the data seems to be consistent with theory. Take your pick.

That being said, it does not mean that the music industry cannot survive and do quite well in a free world.
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Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2012, 08:16:10 AM »

Correlation is not causation.  Maybe the quality of music has gone down, and people are no longer willing to pay $17 for a CD.  Maybe if file sharing didn't exist, they still wouldnt' be buying it at that price.  Maybe there's no place for that on your chart.

As an example, I don't share music (I have, but not in a long time--like the same time I was buying it), and I also haven't been buying it for a long time.  I've purchased something on the order of 500 CDs, including maybe 30 in the last ten years.

Yes, correlation is not causation. You are correct.

But do you understand whats being argued here? What some people are indirectly saying is that monopoly privileges DO NOT increase profits. That is nonsense.

So you can look at the music industry graph and see a dramatic decline in revenue that started around the time of the rise of Napster and tell yourself that it likely has nothing to do with monopoly privileges being eroded. Or you can use economic logic and look at the graph and say the data seems to be consistent with theory. Take your pick.

That being said, it does not mean that the music industry cannot survive and do quite well in a free world.

I don't accept the claim that they're directly correlated.  There are other peaks and valleys on the graph, and a lot of variables.  On One exceptionally interesting variable is media.  Each medium enjoys some success, then gets passed by.  Because the industry dragged its feet with digital media, it failed to gain a huge potential market share that it gained with previous adopted media.  Additionally, with digital media came better access to singles, which hadn't existed since vinyl, and perhaps not insignificantly, similar income levels.  

Your case is unconvincing.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 08:21:49 AM by What's the frequency, Kenneth? »
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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #48 on: January 29, 2012, 01:29:19 PM »

I also think many libertarians don't want to admit that downloads "harm" record labels because of the whole, "Do whatever you want unless it harms someone else," mantra.

That's only a 3rd grade level introduction to libertarianism. The real sentence should read, "Do whatever you want so long as it does not infringe upon other peoples' property rights." We harm people all the time. Go cheat on your significant other and see if it doesn't cause harm. But was it an infringement upon his/her rights? No.

Yes, downloads have "harmed" the music indutry....but so what? The music industry doesn't (at least shouldn't) own property rights in digital patterns.


Here is a graph I found of real revenue for the music industry in 2011 USD. I have no idea if its accurate, but it seems to show a sharp decline in revenue starting around 2000. Not that surprising, right?


Ummm, you realize the graph you display shows the idiocy of arguments from statistics, right? Notice it GOES FLAT in '09, thus not declining. That means digital sales are supplanting the CD sales. If you know what you're looking at you'll know the argument that digital distribution harming revenues isn't entirely true. Namely, that the decline in music sales has little to do with piracy and more to do with the economy. There are studies that show at most 'piracy' accounts for 10% of revenue lost (source: http://torrentfreak.com/music-piracy-not-that-bad-industry-says-090118/). So, 10% accounts for a 50% decline in sales? I think the answer is pretty much a negative. What's more interesting is that digital distribution in PC gaming has been a boon by comparison, where revenues have gained significantly despite cries of piracy, especially among independent game developers where they have little in the way of protection against said piracy.

Furthermore, the argument that one is owed future revenue on the product of one's labor is a bit silly. Consider the fact that there's a Burger King and a McDonalds within a mile of each other in any given city. Now, if Burger King's revenues fall because McDonalds sells burgers too does that mean McDonalds is 'pirating' Burger King's revenues? Of course not. So, how is it any different than when I download a videogame to see if I like it, then finding out that I don't and never play it again? Or that I download the videogame, which I bought on DVD but I needed it cracked to have not require a DVD to play. Or maybe I do download it, play it, like it, and never bought it. In any of these cases, future revenues are what is lost, but not present revenues, the content creators still retain that. Their argument for the appeal to future revenues is idiotic at best and monopolistic at worse.
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The Green Bastard

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #49 on: January 30, 2012, 11:23:50 AM »

The problem I have with IP is that I feel like am being forced at gunpoint to pay for the collections departments of these huge corporations.

If a record company or whatever wants to keep an artist's recording or movie under total control, then they should build a stadium or theater or something and charge admission and never let "copies" of their idea out in to the public.

If a company records an aritst or a movie etc and distributes an album, that company is using all types of "IP" to get their product distributed. Should the copyright holder of "roads", "electricity", "plastic", "the internal combustion engine" or the "wheel" or the miriad of things needed to distribute that album or movie be able to hold the record company liable for stealing their "IP"?

The original poster is missing one huge point when he says "If you don't want to support IP, stop consuming copyrighted material". Well, that doesn't stop the violence and theft that is being forced upon me. Even if I stop using copyrighted or corporate products, I am still forced at gunpoint to pay for fat salaries and retirements of the beurucrats that enforce IP laws.

If these companies want to control the distribution of their product, let them pay for it.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2012, 03:25:46 PM by The Green Bastard »
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #50 on: February 06, 2012, 03:18:59 AM »

The problem I have with IP is that I feel like am being forced at gunpoint to pay for the collections departments of these huge corporations.

If a record company or whatever wants to keep an artist's recording or movie under total control, then they should build a stadium or theater or something and charge admission and never let "copies" of their idea out in to the public.

If a company records an aritst or a movie etc and distributes an album, that company is using all types of "IP" to get their product distributed. Should the copyright holder of "roads", "electricity", "plastic", "the internal combustion engine" or the "wheel" or the miriad of things needed to distribute that album or movie be able to hold the record company liable for stealing their "IP"?

The original poster is missing one huge point when he says "If you don't want to support IP, stop consuming copyrighted material". Well, that doesn't stop the violence and theft that is being forced upon me. Even if I stop using copyrighted or corporate products, I am still forced at gunpoint to pay for fat salaries and retirements of the beurucrats that enforce IP laws.

If these companies want to control the distribution of their product, let them pay for it.


At gunpoint? Don't say goofy things if you want to be taken seriously.
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Dude, I thought you were a spambot for like a week. You posted like a spambot. You failed the Turing test.

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Bill Brasky

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #51 on: February 06, 2012, 07:01:58 AM »

Heres the deal...  Back in "the day", it would be a real big deal if someone sold seventeen million albums. 

Now, someone can get seventeen million YouTube views, easy.

People pay a buck a song all the time. 

The big deal is, the record companies are left out.  The distribution companies, likewise.  I'm pretty sure thats why they call them distribution companies.

If a group is any good   ...  maybe  ..   they put out an "album" once a year, every year, for ten years, and it generates seventeen million hits a song, thats 170 million times ten years, which is 1.7billion.

Thats what Zeppelin did.

Theres no reason why a good band can't enjoy some success if they put out some songs.  I think a few million bucks is nothing to sneeze at, if they hit a streak of successful songs and some popularity. 

Everybody knows most bands got fucked by the recording labels, if they know anything about rock-n-roll.  So why not just exclude them, as a part of evolution.  They had their day in the sun, maybe the recording labels are just parasites. 




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dalebert

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #52 on: February 06, 2012, 11:16:15 AM »

Eggzachary, Sven.

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #53 on: February 06, 2012, 11:42:55 PM »

The problem I have with IP is that I feel like am being forced at gunpoint to pay for the collections departments of these huge corporations.

If a record company or whatever wants to keep an artist's recording or movie under total control, then they should build a stadium or theater or something and charge admission and never let "copies" of their idea out in to the public.

If a company records an aritst or a movie etc and distributes an album, that company is using all types of "IP" to get their product distributed. Should the copyright holder of "roads", "electricity", "plastic", "the internal combustion engine" or the "wheel" or the miriad of things needed to distribute that album or movie be able to hold the record company liable for stealing their "IP"?

The original poster is missing one huge point when he says "If you don't want to support IP, stop consuming copyrighted material". Well, that doesn't stop the violence and theft that is being forced upon me. Even if I stop using copyrighted or corporate products, I am still forced at gunpoint to pay for fat salaries and retirements of the beurucrats that enforce IP laws.

If these companies want to control the distribution of their product, let them pay for it.


At gunpoint? Don't say goofy things if you want to be taken seriously.

These must be rubber toys.
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #54 on: February 06, 2012, 11:47:13 PM »

The problem I have with IP is that I feel like am being forced at gunpoint to pay for the collections departments of these huge corporations.

If a record company or whatever wants to keep an artist's recording or movie under total control, then they should build a stadium or theater or something and charge admission and never let "copies" of their idea out in to the public.

If a company records an aritst or a movie etc and distributes an album, that company is using all types of "IP" to get their product distributed. Should the copyright holder of "roads", "electricity", "plastic", "the internal combustion engine" or the "wheel" or the miriad of things needed to distribute that album or movie be able to hold the record company liable for stealing their "IP"?

The original poster is missing one huge point when he says "If you don't want to support IP, stop consuming copyrighted material". Well, that doesn't stop the violence and theft that is being forced upon me. Even if I stop using copyrighted or corporate products, I am still forced at gunpoint to pay for fat salaries and retirements of the beurucrats that enforce IP laws.

If these companies want to control the distribution of their product, let them pay for it.


At gunpoint? Don't say goofy things if you want to be taken seriously.

These must be rubber toys.


negro, please.
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I am looking for an honest man. -Diogenes The Cynic

Dude, I thought you were a spambot for like a week. You posted like a spambot. You failed the Turing test.

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Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #55 on: February 06, 2012, 11:53:15 PM »

The problem I have with IP is that I feel like am being forced at gunpoint to pay for the collections departments of these huge corporations.

If a record company or whatever wants to keep an artist's recording or movie under total control, then they should build a stadium or theater or something and charge admission and never let "copies" of their idea out in to the public.

If a company records an aritst or a movie etc and distributes an album, that company is using all types of "IP" to get their product distributed. Should the copyright holder of "roads", "electricity", "plastic", "the internal combustion engine" or the "wheel" or the miriad of things needed to distribute that album or movie be able to hold the record company liable for stealing their "IP"?

The original poster is missing one huge point when he says "If you don't want to support IP, stop consuming copyrighted material". Well, that doesn't stop the violence and theft that is being forced upon me. Even if I stop using copyrighted or corporate products, I am still forced at gunpoint to pay for fat salaries and retirements of the beurucrats that enforce IP laws.

If these companies want to control the distribution of their product, let them pay for it.


At gunpoint? Don't say goofy things if you want to be taken seriously.

These must be rubber toys.


negro, please.


That's the best you can do?  I'm not a negro, and if I were, I'd find that even more distasteful.  Nevertheless, I'll stay on topic even when you refuse to.  The point is, eventually the violence will come to you and me.  Just ask one of the grandmothers that's been dragged into court.  The threats they first receive, if not taken seriously and responded to in favor of the pigopoly, will ultimately be followed by similar violence.  All you have to do is listen to personal accounts which are altogether too frequently relayed on Free Talk Live.

You're the corporations' bitch.  Get used to it, until someone takes a match to the whole thing, which will eventually happen unless we teach people all around some manners.
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #56 on: February 07, 2012, 02:56:41 AM »




At gunpoint? Don't say goofy things if you want to be taken seriously.

These must be rubber toys.


negro, please.


That's the best you can do?  I'm not a negro, and if I were, I'd find that even more distasteful.  Nevertheless, I'll stay on topic even when you refuse to.  The point is, eventually the violence will come to you and me.  Just ask one of the grandmothers that's been dragged into court.  The threats they first receive, if not taken seriously and responded to in favor of the pigopoly, will ultimately be followed by similar violence.  All you have to do is listen to personal accounts which are altogether too frequently relayed on Free Talk Live.

You're the corporations' bitch.  Get used to it, until someone takes a match to the whole thing, which will eventually happen unless we teach people all around some manners.

Calling it "thugs with guns" analogy dramatizes the whole thing unnecessarily, and sensationalizes a few incidents out of proportion. Also, one of the actual legitimate functions of a government is to enforce property rights. Unless you don't believe in government. But you still back property rights.

When you own something, no one else can use it without your permission. Its not different for physical property, your body, or the products of your mind. You own your own labor, not other people. They can not appropriate it without your consent.

Now, I wouldn't defend the way they're enforcing intellectual property rights, but somehow, people have to be stopped from stealing.

 
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Dude, I thought you were a spambot for like a week. You posted like a spambot. You failed the Turing test.

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Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #57 on: February 07, 2012, 11:00:20 AM »

It's not drama or analogy.  Those things happen, and they will happen if you're caught and don't stuck suck the member of the pigopoly.  Those "few incidents" are the ones where people didn't suck the member or didn't do it fast enough.  You're denying the gun in the room.  You're claiming armed raids don't exist?  Are you also a holocaust denier?

One, I don't support government, and if I did, what it calls intellectual property today would not be property rights, nor would it be acceptable to use paramilitary raids on people who one has no reason to believe are violent.  The state doesn't care about things like that.  They think it's really COOL.

It's not stealing, because the people still have everything they had before, but you know that because it's been addressed.  Yet you're falling back on bullshit that's already been discussed, and disagreed, not the inherent violence, which I showed you and you still deny.  It isn't property, and agree or disagree on that, the extreme violence is unacceptable.

I repeat: those aren't rubber guns, and there's no reason to believe the people they're pointed at are violent.  You say you wouldn't defend it, but you said:

Quote
At gunpoint? Don't say goofy things if you want to be taken seriously.

...and when I showed you such violence, your response was a joke with an epithet...

Clearly, you don't take the violence of the remedy you support very seriously at all, or you'd be pissed about it, and/or looking for better solutions.

« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 03:08:40 PM by What's the frequency, Kenneth? »
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Turd Ferguson

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #58 on: February 07, 2012, 11:11:04 AM »

I gotta go with Ken on this one.


Bringing guns to an IP conflict aint cool. But hey, what do I know? Maybe exploding someones head like a watermelon and making their kids grow up without a dad is what it takes to stop people from exchanging 1's and 0's, even if it only happens every now and then.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 11:20:45 AM by quickmike »
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dalebert

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #59 on: February 07, 2012, 01:17:45 PM »

Oh, for crimony...

It gets SO OLD, this constant mantra of "stealing is wrong" from IP defenders when they haven't yet convinced others that copying is the same as stealing. It's like a religious person continually repeating "because God says so" when they haven't yet convinced others of the existence of said god.

Look, I get that you feel that it's stealing, but it's a waste of your breath (or typing or whatever) to just keep repeating that. Those of us who don't buy the IP case have not been convinced regarding the foundation that that argument rests on.
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