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dalebert

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2012, 04:19:53 PM »



That doesn't prove harm. That proves they were making a lot of money before and they're not making as much now. They were making a lot of money by threatening people successfully with violence for copying because copying was difficult to do and get away with then. They are not making as much money now that it's easier to copy and get away with it.

Copy is not theft. It wasn't then and it isn't now. They had a violent monopoly based on manufacturing scarcity when there wasn't scarcity, artificially driving up their profits.

Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2012, 05:53:10 PM »

Read the whole thing. He makes a few minor (weak) points, and his main point is that there is no scarcity in IP.

Lets say there isn't. There still is however value, and labor.
Yeah. Do I own the products of my labor?

Goes without saying, Monsieur blackie.
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2012, 05:55:04 PM »

Here's the thing that isn't discussed much as far as music goes.  The "piracy" doesn't screw with the artists as much as everyone claims.  The bands don't make much off CD sales.  They make their real money off concerts.  How do you fill a stadium?  With exposure - whether that is bought or downloaded.  If some song goes batshit viral then the "piracy" can drive more people into the concert than those that bought the CD.

The people loosing money are the record companies.  The driving force behind the RIAA.  They don't create shit anyway artistically.

So, is that how you rationalize stealing?
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Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2012, 08:15:11 PM »

Shit, I hit modify instead of quote.

It may be damage, but I'm not sure it is property damage.

If you hack into my hard drive and reconfigure it......it absolutely is property damage.

But you still have the working hard drive.

What are the damages? Do I owe you a new hard drive?

The damage is whatever he lost because he didn't have use of the data on his hard drive, because it was on HIS hard drive, and you didn't have the right to fuck with it.  How obvious is that?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 04:48:12 AM by blackie »
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Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2012, 08:17:40 PM »

Read the whole thing. He makes a few minor (weak) points, and his main point is that there is no scarcity in IP.

Lets say there isn't. There still is however value, and labor.
Yeah. Do I own the products of my labor?

Goes without saying, Monsieur blackie.

Unless you give it away without contracting that it's still yours.
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SeanD

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2012, 12:49:31 AM »

Here's the thing that isn't discussed much as far as music goes.  The "piracy" doesn't screw with the artists as much as everyone claims.  The bands don't make much off CD sales.  They make their real money off concerts.  How do you fill a stadium?  With exposure - whether that is bought or downloaded.  If some song goes batshit viral then the "piracy" can drive more people into the concert than those that bought the CD.

The people loosing money are the record companies.  The driving force behind the RIAA.  They don't create shit anyway artistically.

So, is that how you rationalize stealing?

Where did I say i did?  There are enough legit sources for free music online I don't find the need to.  Then again I don't find the need to be on the cutting edge of everything new.
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Turd Ferguson

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2012, 07:52:14 AM »

So would it be ok go into a friends house and mess up the game being played on their Scrabble board? I wouldn't think so.


Conversely, I dont think he would mind if you simply took a picture of it.

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Nik from Illinois

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2012, 08:22:24 AM »

Shit, I hit modify instead of quote.

It may be damage, but I'm not sure it is property damage.

If you hack into my hard drive and reconfigure it......it absolutely is property damage.

But you still have the working hard drive.

What are the damages? Do I owe you a new hard drive?

The damage is whatever he lost because he didn't have use of the data on his hard drive, because it was on HIS hard drive, and you didn't have the right to fuck with it.  How obvious is that?
It is obvious if he owns the data on the hard drive.

But you can't own data, I thougt. It is not property. The data is not owned.

While it may be damage, I don't see how it is property damage if the 1's and 0's are just 'ideas', and not property.
You're failing to distinguish between concept and instance.
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Damien Valley

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2012, 10:05:08 AM »

If artists want to make money they need to do what this guy did and embrace the future.

http://www.reybee.com/index.php/horris-records-press/301-mc-lars-talks-about-embracing-piracy-and-horris-records

Here is a music video from him called "Download This Song"

MC Lars - Download This Song [Official Music Video]
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dalebert

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2012, 10:33:11 AM »

But you can't own data, I thougt. It is not property. The data is not owned.

It's not that you can't own data. Obviously he owns the data inside his hard drive. What IP is trying to say is if you make a copy of your data and sell it to someone else, you still own the copy that you sold and any copies that are EVER made of it. THAT is what you can't own logically.

IP is the opposite of property. The person who bought a copy of your data should fucking own it and be able to do whatever he wants with it, including copy it. IP is a blasphemy to any rational notion of property rights.

Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2012, 11:14:14 AM »

Read the whole thing. He makes a few minor (weak) points, and his main point is that there is no scarcity in IP.

Lets say there isn't. There still is however value, and labor.
Yeah. Do I own the products of my labor?

Goes without saying, Monsieur blackie.

Unless you give it away without contracting that it's still yours.
Is software licensing valid? Seems like lots of anti-IP people say EULAs are not.

If I didn't sign it or verbally agree, it's not a contract.
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Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2012, 11:16:34 AM »

Shit, I hit modify instead of quote.

It may be damage, but I'm not sure it is property damage.

If you hack into my hard drive and reconfigure it......it absolutely is property damage.

But you still have the working hard drive.

What are the damages? Do I owe you a new hard drive?

The damage is whatever he lost because he didn't have use of the data on his hard drive, because it was on HIS hard drive, and you didn't have the right to fuck with it.  How obvious is that?
It is obvious if he owns the data on the hard drive.

But you can't own data, I thougt. It is not property. The data is not owned.

The property, the hard drive, is not damaged. It is still in working order.

While it may be damage, I don't see how it is property damage if the 1's and 0's are just 'ideas', and not property.

You own what's on your hard drive by virtue of owning your hard drive.  This is, of course, without regard to if you stole the data by breaking an agreement or violating someone else's (real) property right.  You have the right to uninterrupted use of your own property.  If someone fucks with your data, your right has been violated.
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Tom Foppiano

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2012, 02:57:09 PM »



That doesn't prove harm. That proves they were making a lot of money before and they're not making as much now. They were making a lot of money by threatening people successfully with violence for copying because copying was difficult to do and get away with then. They are not making as much money now that it's easier to copy and get away with it.

Copy is not theft. It wasn't then and it isn't now. They had a violent monopoly based on manufacturing scarcity when there wasn't scarcity, artificially driving up their profits.

I agree with you, Dale. The industry used to have a monopoly protection that worked fairly well. Now that protection has been diminished by technology. The result is lower revenue for the music industry. We can call that harm or justice. I don't care.

Either way, the industry is losing profits from downloads. That's my point. And there are, in fact, quite a few libertarians who will not admit that.
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Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2012, 03:30:06 PM »

Correlation is not causation.  Maybe the quality of music has gone down, and people are no longer willing to pay $17 for a CD.  Maybe if file sharing didn't exist, they still wouldnt' be buying it at that price.  Maybe there's no place for that on your chart.

As an example, I don't share music (I have, but not in a long time--like the same time I was buying it), and I also haven't been buying it for a long time.  I've purchased something on the order of 500 CDs, including maybe 30 in the last ten years.
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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2012, 04:36:11 PM »

What megaupload did that was wrong, and I have always thought was wrong (which is why I NEVER used megaupload) was charge for access to the data.  Rapidshare does it too and that is wrong.

The problem comes in when you are selling pirated data, you are literally profiting from someone else's idea without their consent and that is outside of fair use.  Give it away free and you are sharing.  Sell it and you are pirating.

Do you see the difference?  Sharing is just fine.  Especially if you are sharing with people who bought the product and just want a digital backup for it.  But selling something without paying a royalty to the content creator is piracy and theft.
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