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Author Topic: Cut the IP crap  (Read 24776 times)

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ahasp

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Cut the IP crap
« on: January 23, 2012, 10:09:08 PM »

If you don't want to support IP, stop consuming copyrighted material.  Don't use your opposition to IP to justify pirating content.  You will not die if you don't watch that copyrighted movie or listen to that song.  Support artists that don't use IP if you want to get rid of it. 
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hellbilly

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2012, 10:23:55 PM »

Yep.

Similar to those who are anti-corporate - don't buy shit from the companies with policies you don't agree with.
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Turd Ferguson

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2012, 10:30:39 PM »

I dont really disagree with this, but does it really change anything in terms of how much money a copyrighted product makes? The people who support it, will still buy it. The people that dont support IP, yet still gank it for free aren't really costing the owner of the copyrighted material anything since they wouldn't buy it anyway. The profit still comes out the same in the end.


Just a thought.
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ahasp

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2012, 10:40:26 PM »

I dont really disagree with this, but does it really change anything in terms of how much money a copyrighted product makes? The people who support it, will still buy it. The people that dont support IP, yet still gank it for free aren't really costing the owner of the copyrighted material anything since they wouldn't buy it anyway. The profit still comes out the same in the end.


Just a thought.

I'm just listening to some of the recent podcasts and the strained logic about how pirating media actually helps the artist.  If the people that are taking it for free wouldn't pay for it, then why are they taking it anyway?  If they have to spend the time to find it, download it, and then consume it, they must find some value in it.  I support the idea of getting rid of IP laws, but I support letting the artist determine the distribution model.  I get the feeling the hosts of FTL don't feel that the artist should have control of their creation after they let it out of their direct control. 

A great example of this is the program "R" - a statistical computing program.  The user agreement states that if you are using it for educational purposes, then it's free.  However, if you are using it for commercial purposes, then you are required to pay $400 per license (or something like that).  If you don't like the terms of the agreement, then don't use the product. 
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dalebert

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2012, 11:10:42 PM »

Your post doesn't appear logical.

"If you don't think you're doing anything wrong, then stop doing it!"

I do think it helps to download or copy something that you wouldn't have consumed through the producer's methods.

Think of it like this. If I DL your movie that I wasn't interested enough in to go to the theater or pay $25 for the DVD or whatever, then you're no worse off because you weren't going to make money off me anyway. So no downside there. However, if someone asks me about your movie, I might have some really nice things to say about it. Now maybe due to my positive review, they do go buy the DVD or pay $5 to pay-per-view it or whatever. Me DLing has helped.

If I haven't DLed it, then all I have to say about your movie is that it didn't look interesting enough to pay for. Not a very impressive review. IF what you made is actually decent, then the free-peepers can be excellent promotion.

Also, I've bought a lot of DVDs but it's almost unheard of for me to buy a DVD before I've seen something. That might be that I've seen it in the theater "legitimately" but sometimes it means I saw it on tv or I DLed it or any of a number of ways that I got a free preview.

ahasp

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2012, 11:15:51 PM »

Your post doesn't appear logical.

"If you don't think you're doing anything wrong, then stop doing it!"

I do think it helps to download or copy something that you wouldn't have consumed through the producer's methods.

Think of it like this. If I DL your movie that I wasn't interested enough in to go to the theater or pay $25 for the DVD or whatever, then you're no worse off because you weren't going to make money off me anyway. So no downside there. However, if someone asks me about your movie, I might have some really nice things to say about it. Now maybe due to my positive review, they do go buy the DVD or pay $5 to pay-per-view it or whatever. Me DLing has helped.

If I haven't DLed it, then all I have to say about your movie is that it didn't look interesting enough to pay for. Not a very impressive review. IF what you made is actually decent, then the free-peepers can be excellent promotion.

Also, I've bought a lot of DVDs but it's almost unheard of for me to buy a DVD before I've seen something. That might be that I've seen it in the theater "legitimately" but sometimes it means I saw it on tv or I DLed it or any of a number of ways that I got a free preview.

So if I own the road in front of my house and set the speed limit at 40 mph and you decide that going 80 is alright, is it okay for you to drive down the road that I own at twice the speed limit that I set because you don't think that you are doing anything wrong?
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Turd Ferguson

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2012, 11:31:49 PM »

Dude, thats not even the same argument.

Driving double the speed on your road can have actual physical consequences, detrimental to you. Accidents in front of your house, damage to your road etc etc.

Ganking a crappy movie you made, that I wouldn't have bought anyway, loses you nothing.

I'm kinda torn on the whole IP argument. I see things on both sides of the argument that make sense, but that last post you made about the physical road in front of your house, and trying to make a link between that and IP, well........ im starting to lean the other way just out of spite. LOL
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 02:09:36 AM by quickmike »
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Tom Foppiano

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2012, 11:36:41 PM »

I don't believe in IP, but I think us anti-IP types are incorrect when we claim that people who download music, movies, or software programs, wouldn't have bought the content anyway. That type of thinking is nonsense.

Are there some people who will download first and buy later? Yes. But there's also a bunch of people who would have bought a movie, album, or MMA fight, if they couldn't download it for free.

Again, I'm not pro-IP. Kinsella changed my mind on this issue years and years ago when he argued that we should only have property rights in scarce resources. Patterns of 1's and 0's are not scarce, hence no property rights. But lets not be delusional and claim that all downloaders wouldn't have paid for the service anyway.
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Tom Foppiano

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2012, 11:57:43 PM »

I also think many libertarians don't want to admit that downloads "harm" record labels because of the whole, "Do whatever you want unless it harms someone else," mantra.

That's only a 3rd grade level introduction to libertarianism. The real sentence should read, "Do whatever you want so long as it does not infringe upon other peoples' property rights." We harm people all the time. Go cheat on your significant other and see if it doesn't cause harm. But was it an infringement upon his/her rights? No.

Yes, downloads have "harmed" the music indutry....but so what? The music industry doesn't (at least shouldn't) own property rights in digital patterns.


Here is a graph I found of real revenue for the music industry in 2011 USD. I have no idea if its accurate, but it seems to show a sharp decline in revenue starting around 2000. Not that surprising, right?
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2012, 01:55:37 AM »

I also think many libertarians don't want to admit that downloads "harm" record labels because of the whole, "Do whatever you want unless it harms someone else," mantra.

That's only a 3rd grade level introduction to libertarianism. The real sentence should read, "Do whatever you want so long as it does not infringe upon other peoples' property rights." We harm people all the time. Go cheat on your significant other and see if it doesn't cause harm. But was it an infringement upon his/her rights? No.

Yes, downloads have "harmed" the music indutry....but so what? The music industry doesn't (at least shouldn't) own property rights in digital patterns.


Here is a graph I found of real revenue for the music industry in 2011 USD. I have no idea if its accurate, but it seems to show a sharp decline in revenue starting around 2000. Not that surprising, right?


I'm sorry. I don't understand why they don't own their property, and why they can't benefit from the efforts of their labor.
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Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2012, 02:37:03 AM »

If you don't want to support IP, stop consuming copyrighted material.  Don't use your opposition to IP to justify pirating content.  You will not die if you don't watch that copyrighted movie or listen to that song.  Support artists that don't use IP if you want to get rid of it. 

That's pretty much the same argument as "don't drive on government roads."  You can't avoid IP--it's all around you.  Fuck 'em.  I'll pay when I want (and I'm not exactly a "pirate.")  I just don't give a shit about their lies.
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Tom Foppiano

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2012, 03:45:48 AM »


I'm sorry. I don't understand why they don't own their property, and why they can't benefit from the efforts of their labor.

Of course they "own their own property." But they do not own my property. I have a hard drive on my computer.....and I should be able to arrange 1's and 0's in any order I choose, should I not?

And they can "benefit from their labor" all they want....so long as they don't infringe upon the property rights of others.

Have you read Kinsella's work on this topic? I strongly suggest you do, as I shared your position prior to my reading it.
http://mises.org/journals/jls/15_2/15_2_1.pdf
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2012, 04:06:38 AM »


I'm sorry. I don't understand why they don't own their property, and why they can't benefit from the efforts of their labor.

Of course they "own their own property." But they do not own my property. I have a hard drive on my computer.....and I should be able to arrange 1's and 0's in any order I choose, should I not?

And they can "benefit from their labor" all they want....so long as they don't infringe upon the property rights of others.

Have you read Kinsella's work on this topic? I strongly suggest you do, as I shared your position prior to my reading it.
http://mises.org/journals/jls/15_2/15_2_1.pdf

Guess I'll read it before I reply.
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2012, 06:09:49 AM »

Read the whole thing. He makes a few minor (weak) points, and his main point is that there is no scarcity in IP.

Lets say there isn't. There still is however value, and labor.
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Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2012, 10:00:15 AM »

Patterns of 1's and 0's are not scarce, hence no property rights.
So If I scramble the 0's and 1's on all of your digital storage devices,  I haven't caused any property damage?

Of course you have.  They're features of the digital storage devices, and you've changed them.
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