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Author Topic: Cut the IP crap  (Read 24456 times)

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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #60 on: February 07, 2012, 03:53:35 PM »

Do you at least think people own their labor?

Is writing, typing code, or drafting not labor?
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dalebert

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #61 on: February 07, 2012, 03:59:58 PM »

Do you at least think people own their labor?

Is writing, typing code, or drafting not labor?

Yep. I just don't think it's special. I don't think you get to keep controlling it after you sell it or give it away.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 04:03:14 PM by Dalebert »
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SeanD

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #62 on: February 07, 2012, 05:15:33 PM »

Do you at least think people own their labor?

Is writing, typing code, or drafting not labor?

Yes.  Until the 1st sale is made.  Once someone buys it - it is theirs to do with as they wish.  The sale transfers ownership.
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Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #63 on: February 07, 2012, 06:24:42 PM »

Do you at least think people own their labor?

Is writing, typing code, or drafting not labor?

Yep. I just don't think it's special. I don't think you get to keep controlling it after you sell it or give it away.


Not only that, the price of your labor isn't necessarily > 0.  If your labor is spent doing something foolish, you don't have a right to get paid.  You have a right to offer it to someone to get paid, and they have a right to a counter-offer.  The reason I mentioned this is because you seem to be wandering into the labor theory of value, which is nonsense.  Value is far more subjective.


To be clear, I'm actually replying to DtC, not Dale (DtC is the "you.")
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 11:24:17 AM by What's the frequency, Kenneth? »
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david

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #64 on: February 07, 2012, 09:28:39 PM »

I have purchased 8-track tapes, tape cassettes, vinyl records and CDs of the exact same Beatles album. I have come to the conclusion that the container is what is being sold, not the data (songs) on it. If I was buying the "song" from the record label, I would be able to trade in my 8-Track of "Abbey Road" for a nice new iTunes download of the album. Obviously, I can't do this. The package is what matters, not the data (song) file. The data contained on all of these obsolete formats is thrown out as soon as a new technology comes up with a new form of delivery.

IP supporters should ask themselves this:

After you buy a bunch of MP3s, what happens when that data (song) file is made obsolete by a better sounding, smaller file format. What happens if I buy my songs from iTunes, Amazon or Zune, when those services are replaced by more innovative businesses? If you do not know the answer already, you should. If the format is made obsolete, the previously purchased songs will have to be repurchased again in whatever format or service gets pushed on us.

I agree that if a person wants a hard copy of a 180 gram collector's edition vinyl album/CD of the latest supergroups new album, they should buy it. However, people passing around data that they harvested from their soon to be useless and obsolete compact discs (ripped with their equipment and power) is not the same thing as theft.

If you still don't get it, try this:

Would the pro IP people consider this theft?

Imagine that my friend and I know how to sew clothing. We both buy a fancy dress, take it apart (rip it), make a paper pattern and duplicate it. Then we trade it with each other. My friend gets a dress that she did not buy and so do I. Have we stolen the clothing? Do we owe the dress designer money?

I think not.

I doubt that I am the only person that has purchased the same album in multiple formats. Am I?
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SeanD

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #65 on: February 08, 2012, 03:53:33 AM »

Do you at least think people own their labor?

Is writing, typing code, or drafting not labor?

Yes.  Until the 1st sale is made.  Once someone buys it - it is theirs to do with as they wish.  The sale transfers ownership.
That is why it is not sold. It is leased with strict limitations.

Really.  I ain't leased a book, DVD or CD yet. 

Would like you to try walk out of a store and not pay taxes by claiming you was only leasing it.  Let me know how that goes.  Well in one of those States with a sales tax that is.
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dalebert

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #66 on: February 08, 2012, 05:18:47 AM »

Blah blah blah social contract.

Turd Ferguson

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #67 on: February 08, 2012, 12:24:01 PM »

I have no problem with IP, on the condition that the creator is solely responsible for the costs of securing it.

I cant invent some new gadget in my work shed and expect two armed, taxpayer funded guards to posted on my property to ensure nobody steals it, so why should musicians and authors get special treatment?
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #68 on: February 12, 2012, 05:44:27 AM »

Do you at least think people own their labor?

Is writing, typing code, or drafting not labor?

Yep. I just don't think it's special. I don't think you get to keep controlling it after you sell it or give it away.


Not only that, the price of your labor isn't necessarily > 0.  If your labor is spent doing something foolish, you don't have a right to get paid.  You have a right to offer it to someone to get paid, and they have a right to a counter-offer.  The reason I mentioned this is because you seem to be wandering into the labor theory of value, which is nonsense.  Value is far more subjective.


To be clear, I'm actually replying to DtC, not Dale (DtC is the "you.")

You are wandering into the Syndicalist waters yourself. I bet next you'll say "ownership is theft." That seems to be your point with IP.

If someone works, and they own themselves, and they sell the product of their labor, whomever they sell to obviously values their labor. The fact that musicians, authors, etc. make money is because there are people who value the products of their minds.

If anyone makes the claim that they "wouldn't have bought this cd anyways" they are a thief, and a liar. The intellectual property had to have some value to them for them to have copied it. If they were being charged by the kilobyte for all downloads, their downloading habits would change real fast.
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Dude, I thought you were a spambot for like a week. You posted like a spambot. You failed the Turing test.

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Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #69 on: February 12, 2012, 11:55:34 AM »

You're not even close.  Every transaction has a discreet value to every person.  What makes a sale in the free market is that the buyer values the product over the seller's offer.  It's a meaning of the minds.  When there is no meeting of the minds, there is no sale.  

And, as has been pointed out repeatedly, there is no "theft" if you still have what you had.  The ones and zeros that were in one place and were copied to another place had value, once moved to one's REAL property--there's no "property" in the ones and zeros themselves.  If they were charged for the bandwidth, they would be so charged under SERVICE AGREEMENT--a meeting of the minds.
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Turd Ferguson

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #70 on: February 12, 2012, 12:45:42 PM »

If I take a picture of the Mona Lisa, does the price the original sells for at auction become reduced because I've stolen some of its value?

Maybe they should outlaw taking and looking at pictures of the Mona Lisa, because the owner wants only people to see it who paid a fee to look at it in his museum.

Sound reasonable?
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 12:49:00 PM by quickmike »
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dalebert

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #71 on: February 12, 2012, 06:06:43 PM »

Maybe they should outlaw taking and looking at pictures of the Mona Lisa...

I believe the museum doesn't allow photos, though not for the reasons given. The flashes from cameras have actually gradually degraded it. That's probably not the best example. The Mona Lisa is actually encased in a very light-controlled space and you just have peek through a window to see it.

Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #72 on: February 12, 2012, 08:13:42 PM »

You're not even close.  Every transaction has a discreet value to every person.  What makes a sale in the free market is that the buyer values the product over the seller's offer.  It's a meaning of the minds.  When there is no meeting of the minds, there is no sale.  

And, as has been pointed out repeatedly, there is no "theft" if you still have what you had.  The ones and zeros that were in one place and were copied to another place had value, once moved to one's REAL property--there's no "property" in the ones and zeros themselves.  If they were charged for the bandwidth, they would be so charged under SERVICE AGREEMENT--a meeting of the minds.

Its only a transaction if the owner can say no.

The pirate does  not just end up with zero's and one's on a hard drive. Their SPECIFIC orientation is what give the product meaning and use. Your argument would have move weight if you placed the onus of actual copying to the pirate.  If these guys were retyping the code, or typesetting their books, it wouldn't be as bad.
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I am looking for an honest man. -Diogenes The Cynic

Dude, I thought you were a spambot for like a week. You posted like a spambot. You failed the Turing test.

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Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #73 on: February 13, 2012, 10:35:54 AM »

You're not even close.  Every transaction has a discreet value to every person.  What makes a sale in the free market is that the buyer values the product over the seller's offer.  It's a meaning of the minds.  When there is no meeting of the minds, there is no sale.  

And, as has been pointed out repeatedly, there is no "theft" if you still have what you had.  The ones and zeros that were in one place and were copied to another place had value, once moved to one's REAL property--there's no "property" in the ones and zeros themselves.  If they were charged for the bandwidth, they would be so charged under SERVICE AGREEMENT--a meeting of the minds.

Its only a transaction if the owner can say no.

The pirate does  not just end up with zero's and one's on a hard drive. Their SPECIFIC orientation is what give the product meaning and use. Your argument would have move weight if you placed the onus of actual copying to the pirate.  If these guys were retyping the code, or typesetting their books, it wouldn't be as bad.

Fuck, I hate when I read shit like this when I've got a headache, because I don't want you to get away with the bullshit.

You're only the OWNER if it's something you can own.

The "pirate" isn't a "pirate." pirate.  He's not holding anyone at gunpoint, or depriving anyone of any property.

I have no idea what your "onus" argument is supposed to imply.  It's absurd to say it would be any different if work was wasted in the process.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2012, 07:07:17 PM by What's the frequency, Kenneth? »
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BonerJoe

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #74 on: February 13, 2012, 01:01:49 PM »

IP, UP, EP.
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