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Author Topic: Cut the IP crap  (Read 24464 times)

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BonerJoe

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2012, 10:02:58 AM »

Motherfuckers still don't have lossless downloads. I'd rather just buy the CD and then resell it.
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SeanD

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2012, 12:28:19 PM »

Here's the thing that isn't discussed much as far as music goes.  The "piracy" doesn't screw with the artists as much as everyone claims.  The bands don't make much off CD sales.  They make their real money off concerts.  How do you fill a stadium?  With exposure - whether that is bought or downloaded.  If some song goes batshit viral then the "piracy" can drive more people into the concert than those that bought the CD.

The people loosing money are the record companies.  The driving force behind the RIAA.  They don't create shit anyway artistically.
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Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2012, 12:37:30 PM »

Patterns of 1's and 0's are not scarce, hence no property rights.
So If I scramble the 0's and 1's on all of your digital storage devices,  I haven't caused any property damage?

Of course you have.  They're features of the digital storage devices, and you've changed them.
It may be damage, but I'm not sure it is property damage.

Of course there's property damage.  A reconfiguration of the owner's property so that it has to be "fixed" to operate as the owner intends is damage.
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ahasp

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2012, 12:55:56 PM »

So here is my problem and why I take the stance that I do with IP.  I am a college professor (boo, hiss) and I create two types of intellectual property:  academic research and course materials. 

Much like performance artists, I receive little, if any, remuneration for my academic research.  However, it is important to me that my publisher receives income from publishing my work because they provide the infrastructure for my work in terms of editors, peer reviewers, and distribution channels.  If they didn't receive income from it, that infrastructure would disappear. 

The course materials hit me pretty hard.  Two years ago, I spent the summer developing materials for a course.  I'm not compensated for summer work, but knew that I could use those materials for several years to teach a class that I would be paid for.  According to my university, I own the rights to any course materials that I produce.  This year, the department needed an additional section of the course that I designed these materials for to be taught.  A member of our faculty who is retiring in a few years was offered the course first and took it.  As a member of my promotion committee, he also had access to the course materials that I had developed.  Without those materials, it wouldn't be worth his time to develop the course to teach it once.  I know that he is using my materials because he came to me yesterday and had questions about how to implement a program that I had included in the materials. 

I would have liked to teach the course and would have received an additional $6,000 for it.  So, in this case, I lost out on $6,000 because someone violated my IP rights. 

The issue isn't that there is a scarcity in supply.  I fully acknowledge that the marginal cost of producing a copy of an IP work is virtually zero; the issue is that there is a scarcity in demand.   Only so many people have the knowledge and interest read my academic work.  Only so many students can sign up and take my classes.  If the IP that I create is given away for free, then I won't be compensated for creating it and then I won't be able to continue to create it. 
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ahasp

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2012, 01:22:35 PM »


I'm sorry. I don't understand why they don't own their property, and why they can't benefit from the efforts of their labor.

Of course they "own their own property." But they do not own my property. I have a hard drive on my computer.....and I should be able to arrange 1's and 0's in any order I choose, should I not?

And they can "benefit from their labor" all they want....so long as they don't infringe upon the property rights of others.

Have you read Kinsella's work on this topic? I strongly suggest you do, as I shared your position prior to my reading it.
http://mises.org/journals/jls/15_2/15_2_1.pdf

The irony is that Kinsella's article is copyrighted.
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Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2012, 01:27:02 PM »


I'm sorry. I don't understand why they don't own their property, and why they can't benefit from the efforts of their labor.

Of course they "own their own property." But they do not own my property. I have a hard drive on my computer.....and I should be able to arrange 1's and 0's in any order I choose, should I not?

And they can "benefit from their labor" all they want....so long as they don't infringe upon the property rights of others.

Have you read Kinsella's work on this topic? I strongly suggest you do, as I shared your position prior to my reading it.
http://mises.org/journals/jls/15_2/15_2_1.pdf

The irony is that Kinsella's article is copyrighted.

Everything published after 1977 is copyrighted.
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Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2012, 01:28:52 PM »

So here is my problem and why I take the stance that I do with IP.  I am a college professor (boo, hiss) and I create two types of intellectual property:  academic research and course materials.  

Much like performance artists, I receive little, if any, remuneration for my academic research.  However, it is important to me that my publisher receives income from publishing my work because they provide the infrastructure for my work in terms of editors, peer reviewers, and distribution channels.  If they didn't receive income from it, that infrastructure would disappear.  

The course materials hit me pretty hard.  Two years ago, I spent the summer developing materials for a course.  I'm not compensated for summer work, but knew that I could use those materials for several years to teach a class that I would be paid for.  According to my university, I own the rights to any course materials that I produce.  This year, the department needed an additional section of the course that I designed these materials for to be taught.  A member of our faculty who is retiring in a few years was offered the course first and took it.  As a member of my promotion committee, he also had access to the course materials that I had developed.  Without those materials, it wouldn't be worth his time to develop the course to teach it once.  I know that he is using my materials because he came to me yesterday and had questions about how to implement a program that I had included in the materials.  

I would have liked to teach the course and would have received an additional $6,000 for it.  So, in this case, I lost out on $6,000 because someone violated my IP rights.  

The issue isn't that there is a scarcity in supply.  I fully acknowledge that the marginal cost of producing a copy of an IP work is virtually zero; the issue is that there is a scarcity in demand.   Only so many people have the knowledge and interest read my academic work.  Only so many students can sign up and take my classes.  If the IP that I create is given away for free, then I won't be compensated for creating it and then I won't be able to continue to create it.  

This is called the argument from pity.  It's not a valid argument.  If the world changed, you'd change too.  That world might have better opportunities for you.
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John Shaw

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2012, 01:58:25 PM »

*Sigh*

Another IP thread.

In summation -

1. I am a content creator

2. I can't do anything about people downloading my stuff against my wishes.

3. Using government to attempt to do so is wrong.

4. Using government to attempt to do so will make my potential customers hate me.

5. Potential customers who hate me are no longer customers.

6. Using unpleasent or annoying DRM methods will make my potential customers hate me.

7. Potential customers who hate me are no longer customers.

8. All that being true, if someone creates content, and they ask you to pay for it, and you use the content without paying for it, you are a giant shitheel and should be ashamed of yourself. I see no problem with shaming this person and calling them rude names.

9. Shaming people and calling them rude names may in fact invoke hatred from my potential customers.

10. Potential customers who hate me are no longer customers.

11. But they're still shitheels.

12. Therefore, I must give my potential customers an incentive to give me money. Plastic crap and doodads and higher quality versions and bonus material and a million other things that may, in fact, require me to be a creative marketer. That is the fucking way of things, in the world, today.


In a few years rapid prototyping machines are gonna be reasonable to own in one's own home and this shit will all come up again when (At first) nerdy guys (And soon after everyone else) start 3d scanning items and posting the 3d files online for anyone with the money to afford duplicating all sorts of real life plastic crap goods. Want an exact recreation of that $400 Lego set, or for that matter, every single Lego piece in existence? Poof.

There's no stopping it. Figure out how to make it pay a different way. Government power and violence won't stop this.

Would my time as a content creator have been better spent actually making content than spending huge swathes of time worrying about this sort of bullshit? Yes. Tough shit. Can't stop it.

You want people to buy your hardcover book, it better be leather bound, gold inlay, have a fold out map, have a scratch off redemption code of the Ebook AND audiobook versions in the cover, and come in a box with a plastic figure of the main character.

This is the future and nothing can be done to stop it and I wouldn't if I wanted to because I am also a consumer as well as a producer and I enjoy the best quality goods and services.

*Shrug*
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 02:12:00 PM by John Shaw »
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ahasp

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2012, 02:14:16 PM »

So here is my problem and why I take the stance that I do with IP.  I am a college professor (boo, hiss) and I create two types of intellectual property:  academic research and course materials.  

Much like performance artists, I receive little, if any, remuneration for my academic research.  However, it is important to me that my publisher receives income from publishing my work because they provide the infrastructure for my work in terms of editors, peer reviewers, and distribution channels.  If they didn't receive income from it, that infrastructure would disappear.  

The course materials hit me pretty hard.  Two years ago, I spent the summer developing materials for a course.  I'm not compensated for summer work, but knew that I could use those materials for several years to teach a class that I would be paid for.  According to my university, I own the rights to any course materials that I produce.  This year, the department needed an additional section of the course that I designed these materials for to be taught.  A member of our faculty who is retiring in a few years was offered the course first and took it.  As a member of my promotion committee, he also had access to the course materials that I had developed.  Without those materials, it wouldn't be worth his time to develop the course to teach it once.  I know that he is using my materials because he came to me yesterday and had questions about how to implement a program that I had included in the materials.  

I would have liked to teach the course and would have received an additional $6,000 for it.  So, in this case, I lost out on $6,000 because someone violated my IP rights.  

The issue isn't that there is a scarcity in supply.  I fully acknowledge that the marginal cost of producing a copy of an IP work is virtually zero; the issue is that there is a scarcity in demand.   Only so many people have the knowledge and interest read my academic work.  Only so many students can sign up and take my classes.  If the IP that I create is given away for free, then I won't be compensated for creating it and then I won't be able to continue to create it.  

This is called the argument from pity.  It's not a valid argument.  If the world changed, you'd change too.  That world might have better opportunities for you.

Pointing out that the issue isn't a scarcity in supply, but a scarcity in demand isn't an argument from pity-it's a statement of fact. 
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John Shaw

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2012, 02:21:16 PM »

Also this -

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Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2012, 03:12:18 PM »

So here is my problem and why I take the stance that I do with IP.  I am a college professor (boo, hiss) and I create two types of intellectual property:  academic research and course materials.  

Much like performance artists, I receive little, if any, remuneration for my academic research.  However, it is important to me that my publisher receives income from publishing my work because they provide the infrastructure for my work in terms of editors, peer reviewers, and distribution channels.  If they didn't receive income from it, that infrastructure would disappear.  

The course materials hit me pretty hard.  Two years ago, I spent the summer developing materials for a course.  I'm not compensated for summer work, but knew that I could use those materials for several years to teach a class that I would be paid for.  According to my university, I own the rights to any course materials that I produce.  This year, the department needed an additional section of the course that I designed these materials for to be taught.  A member of our faculty who is retiring in a few years was offered the course first and took it.  As a member of my promotion committee, he also had access to the course materials that I had developed.  Without those materials, it wouldn't be worth his time to develop the course to teach it once.  I know that he is using my materials because he came to me yesterday and had questions about how to implement a program that I had included in the materials.  

I would have liked to teach the course and would have received an additional $6,000 for it.  So, in this case, I lost out on $6,000 because someone violated my IP rights.  

The issue isn't that there is a scarcity in supply.  I fully acknowledge that the marginal cost of producing a copy of an IP work is virtually zero; the issue is that there is a scarcity in demand.   Only so many people have the knowledge and interest read my academic work.  Only so many students can sign up and take my classes.  If the IP that I create is given away for free, then I won't be compensated for creating it and then I won't be able to continue to create it.  

This is called the argument from pity.  It's not a valid argument.  If the world changed, you'd change too.  That world might have better opportunities for you.

Pointing out that the issue isn't a scarcity in supply, but a scarcity in demand isn't an argument from pity-it's a statement of fact.  

Yet, that's not what you said.  You said you make your money off IP and you were ripped off, so IP must be protected.

By the way, your form of the argument from scarcity is bullshit too.  Ever been to a museum that had art from before copyright?  How'd that happen?  It's supposed to be impossible in your world.  People who don't have bureaucrats and armies protecting their right to get paid to make crap won't make crap any more...yet it happened.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 03:20:22 PM by What's the frequency, Kenneth? »
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Tom Foppiano

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2012, 03:44:40 PM »

It may be damage, but I'm not sure it is property damage.

If you hack into my hard drive and reconfigure it......it absolutely is property damage.

However, if you simply learn how I had my 1's and 0's configured and you copied them, it is not property damage.

Here's an example. An artist owns the stone block. He then mixes his labor with his property and carves the block into a human figure. Now, he owns his art work because he owned the stone block before the transformation. But he does not "own" the exclusive right to carve human figures into stone blocks.

So if you went over to this artists house and changed his carving from a human figure to a horse, you have damaged his property. But if you simply buy your own stone block and carve a figure in it, you haven't violated anyone's rights in the process.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 03:53:50 PM by blackie »
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Turd Ferguson

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2012, 03:58:47 PM »

YOU DAMAGED HIS ONEZ AND OH'S!!
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dalebert

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2012, 04:06:52 PM »

I don't believe in IP, but I think us anti-IP types are incorrect when we claim that people who download music, movies, or software programs, wouldn't have bought the content anyway. That type of thinking is nonsense.

I don't think that's the claim being made. That's just a particular case that is being discussed. That describes a fairly large segment of people who DL for free. Yes, there's also a large segment of people who want something badly enough to pay for it if they can't get it easily enough for free. HOWEVER, the reality is the former segment is likely to grow and the latter segment is likely to shrink over time. that's just the direction things are going. It's going to be nigh impossible to stop with government threats. I think once the industry finally accepts this reality, they'll come up with the right business plan for a modern age. They close the gap, i.e. make it easier and inexpensive enough to get their content vs. the difficulty and tedium of DLing it for free. Plus, when it's inexpensive and convenient enough, many people will just be glad to pay it to support the content they want more of.

We're in a temporary phase right now where the media giants are trying to hold onto a dinosaur of a violent business model rather than adapt but change is coming.

dalebert

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Re: Cut the IP crap
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2012, 04:14:08 PM »

Pointing out that the issue isn't a scarcity in supply, but a scarcity in demand isn't an argument from pity-it's a statement of fact. 

How is that any different though? Either one results in a product of lower value.
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