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theCelestrian

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #3075 on: January 31, 2010, 03:00:00 PM »

I attempt to make this point by showing that "government" and it's "authority" are indeed fiction.  Lack of government is anarchy.  Once someone sees this point, they are no longer fooled by the "false cult religion" called statism.

How do you expect to achieve this when your arguments and "illustrations" will be dismissed (correctly) as logically superfluous?

Oh, and by the way - once you have a community of more than one individual who agrees/believes in a "Lack of government" (Anarchy) - you have in fact created an agreed upon system of governance (i.e. "the rule is there are no rules") and thus making Anarchy once again - an abstract concept as there have now been accepted and agreed upon "limits."

Limits that I assume would require authority, thus requiring those subscribing to Anarchy to accept that authority.

Circular.  Superfluous. and therefore, irrelevant for the means of "illustration."

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Johnson

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #3076 on: January 31, 2010, 05:40:55 PM »

Why not just go with the original argument as posited by Descartes over the version put out there by Hollywood? . It seems like it would be more up your alley anyway Gene, as it is in reference to demons confusing a brain, versus being a brain in a jar.
The argument you are talking about is a confused version of an attack on skepticism.

The term "skeptic" is commonly applied to people who are inclined to doubt accepted beliefs or who habitually mistrust people or ideas in general. In this sense skepticism can be characterized as a healthy and open-minded tendency to test and probe popularly held beliefs. Such a state of mind is usually a useful safeguard against credulity but may sometimes tip over into a tendency to doubt everything, regardless of the justification for doing so. But whether good or bad, being skeptical in this popular sense is quite different from its philosophical usage.

The philosophical skeptic doesn't claim that we know nothing -- not least because to do so would be obviously self-defeating (one thing we could not know is that we know nothing ). Rather, the skeptics position us to challenge our rights to make claims to knowledge. We think we know lots of things, but how can we defend those claims? What grounds can be produced to justify any particular claim to knowledge? Our supposed knowledge of the world is based on perceptions gained by our senses, usually mediated by our use of reason. But are not such perceptions always open to error? Can we ever be sure we're not hallucinating or dreaming, or that our memory isn't playing tricks? If the experience of dreaming. Is indistinguishable from our waking experience, we can never be certain that something we think to be the case is in fact the case -- that what we take to be the true is in fact true. Such concerns, taken to an extreme, lead to evil demons and brains in jars...

Epistemology is the area of philosophy concerned with knowledge: determining what we know and how we know it in identifying the conditions to be met for something to count as knowledge. Conceived as such, it can be seen as a response to the skeptics challenge; its history as a series of attempts to deceive skepticism. Many feel the subsequent philosophers have been no more successful than Descartes in vanquishing skepticism. The concern that in the end there is no sure escape from the jar continues to cast a big shadow over philosophy. In fact there is a modern version of this argument called the simulation argument. Nick Bostrom suggests that it is highly probable that we are already living in a computer simulation. Just consider...

In the future is likely that our civilization will reach a level of technology such that we can create an incredibly sophisticated computer simulation of human minds and worlds for those minds to inhabit. Relatively tiny resources will be needed to sustain such simulated worlds -- a single laptop of the future could be home to thousands or millions of simulated minds -- so in all probability simulated minds will vastly outnumber biological ones. The experiences of both biological and simulated minds will be indistinguishable and both will of course think that they are not stimulated, but the latter (who will make up the vast majority of minds) will in fact be mistaken. We naturally couch this argument in terms of hypotheticals about the future, but who's to say that this "future" hasn't already happened -- that such computer expertise has not already been obtained and such minds already simulated? We of course suppose that we are nota computer simulated mind living in a simulated world, but that may be a tribute to the quality of the programming. Following the logic of Bostrum's argument, it is very likely that our supposition is wrong!

This is also why that argument is irrelevant... The only frame of reality that matters is the one we can percieve.

I wish Gene that beleiving in a deity could make it real, or that believing in magical powers could grant them to me... Unfortunately, as much as a little kid tries to will away the truth, once they find out Santa isn't real....
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 05:43:08 PM by Johnson »
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theCelestrian

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #3077 on: January 31, 2010, 05:48:18 PM »

<another very well laid out counter-argument>

Very nice, Johnson - a very well put counter-synopsis.

...I notice you got a new signature, by the way.
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Johnson

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #3078 on: January 31, 2010, 05:50:00 PM »

Haha I've had this sig since he made that post... I laughed for a solid minute....


I laughed like this guy... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggB33d0BLcY&feature=youtube_gdata
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 05:53:26 PM by Johnson »
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"In silent resignation, one must never submit to them voluntarily, and even if one is imprisoned in some ghastly dictatorship's jail, where no action is possible - serenity comes from the knowledge that one does NOT accept it. To deal with men by force, is as impractical as to deal with nature by persuasion... Which is the policy of savages who rule men by force, and who plead with nature by prayers, incantations and bribes (sacrifies)." - Ayn Rand

ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #3079 on: January 31, 2010, 10:05:59 PM »

I attempt to make this point by showing that "government" and it's "authority" are indeed fiction.  Lack of government is anarchy.  Once someone sees this point, they are no longer fooled by the "false cult religion" called statism.

How do you expect to achieve this when your arguments and "illustrations" will be dismissed (correctly) as logically superfluous?

Oh, and by the way - once you have a community of more than one individual who agrees/believes in a "Lack of government" (Anarchy) - you have in fact created an agreed upon system of governance (i.e. "the rule is there are no rules") and thus making Anarchy once again - an abstract concept as there have now been accepted and agreed upon "limits."

Limits that I assume would require authority, thus requiring those subscribing to Anarchy to accept that authority.

Circular.  Superfluous. and therefore, irrelevant for the means of "illustration."


If you check dictionary.com and see the first meaning of "anarchy" I think you will find that your statement is in error. 

1.    a state of society without government or law.

Two people agreeing that there is no "authority" (or "government") does not create a "government" nor create a "law".  I maintain that we are currently in a state of society without "law".  If you don't believe me, try to have some of these "politicians" prosecuted for the "violations" of their written (fictitious) laws.  They are quite immune because they are "in" on the secret that there really is no law, no "authority".  Only force by those who want to take against those whom they can violate.  The past criminal in chief "W" was immune and the current criminal in chief "O" are aware of this fact.  They will continue to cooperate with each other in order to keep the charade going.  "Anarchy" can never be a "government" because those who acknowledge anarchy, by their acknowledgment of it, accept that there can be no "authority" over others...  And then we're back to the fact that fiction "government" and fiction "authority" are symbiotic.

Johnson

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #3080 on: January 31, 2010, 10:19:45 PM »

See what I said about him being a lying jerkoff who would intentionally misinterpret what you are saying so the he can keep the thread going???

If he believes in the tenets of Christianity, he is so gonna fucking burn.... A sorts of sins of pride, and lying, dishonesty, etc.

It's really funny to watch Gene pretend to be functionally retarded when the truth really isn't that far off... He thinks he's so clever... That's part of what keeps me coming back to this thread... Laughing at Gene thinking he's clever...
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 10:37:14 PM by Johnson »
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"In silent resignation, one must never submit to them voluntarily, and even if one is imprisoned in some ghastly dictatorship's jail, where no action is possible - serenity comes from the knowledge that one does NOT accept it. To deal with men by force, is as impractical as to deal with nature by persuasion... Which is the policy of savages who rule men by force, and who plead with nature by prayers, incantations and bribes (sacrifies)." - Ayn Rand

Johnson

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #3081 on: January 31, 2010, 10:28:47 PM »

Nope, politicians never get prosecuted by their own laws, or get punished by their own systems, nope, never happens. Never, ever... http://politicalgraveyard.com/special/trouble-disgrace.html

 Nope, this list isn't huge or anything, not at all...

Of course... Now I'm just contradicting Gene for fun and because it's easy... Because it's great to dish out a little taste of "I'm going to intentionally misinterpret what you just said..."
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"In silent resignation, one must never submit to them voluntarily, and even if one is imprisoned in some ghastly dictatorship's jail, where no action is possible - serenity comes from the knowledge that one does NOT accept it. To deal with men by force, is as impractical as to deal with nature by persuasion... Which is the policy of savages who rule men by force, and who plead with nature by prayers, incantations and bribes (sacrifies)." - Ayn Rand

theCelestrian

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #3082 on: February 01, 2010, 12:20:53 AM »

So Gene, didn't even want to try and touch Johnson's post which more formally expounded some of the arguments I was also making, eh?

Your cherry-picking is beginning to lead me to believe that you are, in fact, not discussing in good-faith nor making every attempt to:

  • Be intellectually honest by acknowledging the logical conclusions that some of your arguments bring about.

  • Interpreting a post in the best-possible favor of the person you are discussing the topic with.  (i.e. - "Whenever there is doubt, give them the benefit of yours.")


If you check dictionary.com and see the first meaning of "anarchy" I think you will find that your statement is in error. 

1.    a state of society without government or law.

Ooo ooo... let's see what else the dictionary says about 'anarchy':

Quote from: dictionary.reference.com
2.    political and social disorder due to the absence of governmental control: The death of the king was followed by a year of anarchy.

3.    a theory that regards the absence of all direct or coercive government as a political ideal and that proposes the cooperative and voluntary association of individuals and groups as the principal mode of organized society.

4.    confusion; chaos; disorder: Intellectual and moral anarchy followed his loss of faith.

So - You have been found guilty of selective interpretation to suit your argument in bad faith, as I am fairly sure in my readings of your posts throughout this BBS is that you will interpret Anarchy as #3 when it suits your needs ("Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer, et al), but have apparently decided to use interpretation #1 because it doesn't open your argument up for the rebuttal I'm about to make.

Classy.

Two people agreeing that there is no "authority" (or "government") does not create a "government" nor create a "law". 

Fail, Gene:  "The law is there is no law."

Notice:

  • This constitutes an agreement - This *is* a form of governance; the individuals participating in the agreement have, by their acceptance of anarchy, implicitly recognize and adhere to the limitation of: "there is no law," or if we take a more appropriate interpretation of 'Anarchy,' for the liberty-minded, "there is no law over others; the only law is 'natural law'."

    i.e. the NAP, etc...

  • Through the agreement, the recognition of individual authority is created and recognized. - If, for the making your argument the best possible, i.e. a "voluntarist" style of Anarchy, then each person realized that they have authority over themselves (abstract synthesis), and that their authority does not overstep or usurp the authority of another individual (behavioral compliance of the abstract principle).

    governance:  There are rules as a result of abstract synthesis and behavioral compliance - even insofar that the individual/group recognizes that the only rules that are applicable are those that one applies to himself and no other.


I maintain that we are currently in a state of society without "law".

I want you to make note that you said this, because I'm going to step you through how this is going lead undermining some of your points and assertations regarding "authority" in a bit.


If you don't believe me, try to have some of these "politicians" prosecuted for the "violations" of their written (fictitious) laws.  They are quite immune because they are "in" on the secret that there really is no law, no "authority".  Only force by those who want to take against those whom they can violate.  The past criminal in chief "W" was immune and the current criminal in chief "O" are aware of this fact.  They will continue to cooperate with each other in order to keep the charade going.

Fail; strawman. You have been found guilty of intentionally (once again) side-stepping my entire point, attempting to change the context of point and mis-interpreting to suit your purposes as well as playing the game of 'bad analogy.'

Let's look at what I said again:

Oh, and by the way - once you have a community of more than one individual who agrees/believes in a "Lack of government" (Anarchy) - you have in fact created an agreed upon system of governance (i.e. "the rule is there are no rules") and thus making Anarchy once again - an abstract concept as there have now been accepted and agreed upon "limits."

So.

  • Where in my last couple posts did I indicate I was talking about the U.S. (or any State) Government?

    Let's break down the first clause:


    Oh, and by the way - once you have a community of more than one individual who agrees/believes
    in a "Lack of government" (Anarchy) - you have in fact created an agreed upon system of
    governance
    (i.e. "the rule is there are no rules")


    Take a gooooood long read.  Notice something?  "once you have..."  It's interesting because we were talking again about 'anarchy' and 'authority' and even 'emotions' in the philisophical abstract and how they are applicable to the physical world.  My point, which I feel you deliberately overlooked so you could engage in your sophistry-of-the-rhetorical-question, is that even in the absence of any other form of 'government' or [insert ficticious label here], the second 1+ person agrees upon "the truth of Anarchy" - they have in fact agreed upon a form of governance as I outlined above.

    Hence, the conditional clause, "once you have..."

  • Secondary point: You are in-fact arguing for The Law of the Jungle as 'reality'; in such a context Christian Anarchy (or even Anarchy) is *not* a sensible asnwer:
    You just made the case that the only reality is that people can use violence to force capitulation insofar as they are successful, are you not?

    Only force by those who want to take against those whom they can violate. [...is the only reality]

    ...and remember this one?

    I maintain that we are currently in a state of society without "law".

    So:
    • All abstract concepts are fiction.
    • Only physical objects and their actions are real
    • Laws are fictions. (pick any one you want)
    -------
    • Morality is also a fiction
    • 'Good' and 'Bad' are fictions
    • The only 'sensible answer' is to be an oppressor and force the capitulation of all before me that I am able
    • It is also 'sensible' to ally myself with others of a common goal to achieve that which grants me the largest physical benefit


"Anarchy" can never be a "government" because those who acknowledge anarchy, by their acknowledgment of it, accept that there can be no "authority" over others...  And then we're back to the fact that fiction "government" and fiction "authority" are symbiotic.

edit:I'll assume my color coding is a result of improper reading - and thus retract my first portion of this section's response to give you be benefit of the doubt.

My points above cover this already.  Circular, Superfluous and therefore irrelevant unless to illustrate that the Law of the Jungle is reality and that one should oppress others as it is the only objectively proven way - through you numerous unsolicited examples of "today's government" - to ensure the maximum benefit of the individual and those he/she cares about.




I respectfully "clap out" of this thread - 2 violations of arguing in Bad Faith are enough for me, and therefore I exercise my right to abstention.

This will be my final post on any matters in this thread dealing with Abstract concepts as fiction.  I will of course read and consider any response you may have, but I will not indulge in a discussion I no longer believe is being conducted in good faith.


この授業はすごく興味深かったです。あなたは私に喋ったありがとうございました。


« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 12:51:19 AM by theCelestrian »
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ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #3083 on: February 01, 2010, 11:43:55 AM »

Nope, politicians never get prosecuted by their own laws, or get punished by their own systems, nope, never happens. Never, ever... http://politicalgraveyard.com/special/trouble-disgrace.html

 Nope, this list isn't huge or anything, not at all...

Of course... Now I'm just contradicting Gene for fun and because it's easy... Because it's great to dish out a little taste of "I'm going to intentionally misinterpret what you just said..."

It seems you are the one doing the twisting (but of course you will deny it).  I said to try to prosecute these criminals for what they are doing and that you would not be able to do so.  I did not say that the criminals will not, from time to time, turn on one of their own and fry them because they crossed some line (that we will never be informed of).

You will note PLEASE that there are exceptions to every "rule".  Of course sometimes you can find an example of a politician being "caught" and punished for their misdeeds, but it's very rare.  Most of the time they will get away with everything they do.

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #3084 on: February 01, 2010, 12:04:36 PM »

If you check dictionary.com and see the first meaning of "anarchy" I think you will find that your statement is in error.  

1.    a state of society without government or law.

Ooo ooo... let's see what else the dictionary says about 'anarchy':

Quote from: dictionary.reference.com
2.    political and social disorder due to the absence of governmental control: The death of the king was followed by a year of anarchy.

3.    a theory that regards the absence of all direct or coercive government as a political ideal and that proposes the cooperative and voluntary association of individuals and groups as the principal mode of organized society.

4.    confusion; chaos; disorder: Intellectual and moral anarchy followed his loss of faith.

So - You have been found guilty of selective interpretation to suit your argument in bad faith, as I am fairly sure in my readings of your posts throughout this BBS is that you will interpret Anarchy as #3 when it suits your needs ("Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer, et al), but have apparently decided to use interpretation #1 because it doesn't open your argument up for the rebuttal I'm about to make.

Classy.


No, I made it quite clear that I was using the "FIRST" definition.  Nowhere did I claim that there were not additional ones.  I even listed my source so you could (and did) read all of them.

Quote


Two people agreeing that there is no "authority" (or "government") does not create a "government" nor create a "law".  

Fail, Gene:  "The law is there is no law."


Ya, I know that you feel that declaring there is no law makes a law, I disagree...

Quote

Notice:


and then you go into a big long tirade on how not have any laws is a law and inserting examples of "self-law" and "natural-law" (which are not "governmental" law)...

So we have a lack of communication.  I have never stated that there are no "personal laws" that people live by.  Indeed, these are the only ones that people really follow.  The ones they personally agree are good behavior.  

If you really want to use a good "gotcha" against me, you can even find times when I "work within the system" to pass legislation (Ron Paul ring any bells?) get people elected etc.  Why would I bother to participate in a "fiction"?  It's very simple and I've explained it in the past.  The "false cult" of government is practiced by most of the people on this ball.  I cannot reach everyone with the truth of the anarchy they live under as everyone is not in the correct stage of their life's journey to accept it.  Therefore I have to agree (with them) that the Easter Bunny is really going to paint them some eggs and leave them hidden so they can find them.  Sometimes I tell them that I will help them place their tooth under the pillow so the "Tooth Fairy" will leave them some money.  This does not make me a hypocrite or dishonest.  It makes me a realist for having to deal with people on their own level at that time in their life.

If you fault me for this, fine, I do not answer to any man.  Believe as you will - "IT'S A FREE COUNTRY" hahahahaha...
« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 12:07:22 PM by ChristianAnarchist »
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theCelestrian

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"In silent resignation, one must never submit to them voluntarily, and even if one is imprisoned in some ghastly dictatorship's jail, where no action is possible - serenity comes from the knowledge that one does NOT accept it. To deal with men by force, is as impractical as to deal with nature by persuasion... Which is the policy of savages who rule men by force, and who plead with nature by prayers, incantations and bribes (sacrifies)." - Ayn Rand

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #3087 on: February 01, 2010, 09:15:34 PM »

Terribly sorry that you feel that I have not responded to every nuance of an idea in your lengthy posts.  I may have missed your meanings or perhaps you were simply trying to be confusing.  I have stated that I will try to answer individual points, but when you post 30 lines of text, don't expect me to respond to every point (you certainly feel fine about ignoring some of my points).

At any rate, I am not bound to answer your "points" and I certainly do not try to hold you to respond to mine...

P.S. Celestrian, I thought you "clapped your hands" and were not going to post any more?

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"In silent resignation, one must never submit to them voluntarily, and even if one is imprisoned in some ghastly dictatorship's jail, where no action is possible - serenity comes from the knowledge that one does NOT accept it. To deal with men by force, is as impractical as to deal with nature by persuasion... Which is the policy of savages who rule men by force, and who plead with nature by prayers, incantations and bribes (sacrifies)." - Ayn Rand

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