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Author Topic: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...  (Read 428478 times)

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Libertarianssuck

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2850 on: August 10, 2009, 02:33:25 AM »



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Then you have no reason to suppose that a hypothetical God could have created a more perfect human existence.

Why couldn't I? I said if there was some all knowing god it wouldn't mean they couldn't. Does god have to be good? Does he have to be neutral? Evil? Does he care or is he selfish? Is he like a child wielding the power we envision god having? Does god even exist? I'm saying there is so much we dont know we really can't say either way. We are compromised do only understanding the connection of synapses that tell us the reality around us. Even that could be misleading.

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Of course I can imagine a more intelligent, longer lived, animal than Man as well as one with greater and more numerous types of perception, but who's to say that that isn't Man's evolutionary destiny and that this isn't a hypothetical God's plan?

Thats not it I'm saying you can't possibly understand the existence outside of yours. It doesnt mean you have to be an animal with a long life span or better qualities to survival. It means you can't comprehend what it would be like to be in the shoes of some other existence. A plant? A cell? What is existence and life really? What is reality? Think outside the box and consider that you really know nothing. Our whole life could be a facade.


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Man is a work in progress

Really? You know this how? Life as we know is just existence in progress yet it always recedes into nothing. Maybe god just views us as cable tv. Who the fuck knows really?

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A perfect and loving God would no doubt, not only create the kind of Man whose pleasure and happiness derives from the exercise of his mental and physical faculties for survival, procreation as well as discovering the form of morality that is proper to his nature, but create a Man that could become his own perfecter, becoming the master of his own evolution.

Are you talking about a perfect species? Whats the perfect existence? We thrive off of the happy chemical releases from our brain. Synapses telling us what we see and feel. Everything from the cellular level to the possibilities of the unknown. Saying without a doubt that god, the big bang or anything else created life is ignorant imo. as well as saying that this existence is the best that could be experienced.


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Life is an end in itself. The purpose and reward of life is in the process of living itself.  You may plan for the future, but never forget to live in the moment.


Yea you live in the moment but this moment is insignificant like the ant in your backyard. Can you imagine ceasing to exist? those memories and moments don't matter cuz they dont exist anymore... You are nothing. Nowhere with no memories. Like it never happened. Never effecting the reality around you. No remniscing. No emotions. Nothingness as time continues never ending.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 01:03:20 PM by Hideaki »
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markuzick

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2851 on: August 11, 2009, 05:22:11 AM »



Quote
Then you have no reason to suppose that a hypothetical God could have created a more perfect human existence.

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Why couldn't I? I said if there was some all knowing god it wouldn't mean they couldn't. Does god have to be good? Does he have to be neutral? Evil? Does he care or is he selfish? Is he like a child wielding the power we envision god having? Does god even exist? I'm saying there is so much we dont know we really can't say either way. We are compromised do only understanding the connection of synapses that tell us the reality around us. Even that could be misleading.

There is no evidence that convinces me that God exists. Even he does, then he cannot be supernatural, but merely the creator of life as we know it and maybe portions of the world we live in. If God is wise and loving, then it wouldn't really matter; he would set life or its preconditions in motion and then allow it to act according to its nature, without interference.

You have only one possible rational standard of value: Life; specifically: your life. There is no other mode of conscious existence that could have any meaningful value to you. If, somehow, you could trade what you are for some other existence where you could be conscious, but without any needs or dangers, you would be cheated. You would cease to exit as a person and all the things that you value would lose their meaning. It would be like living an eternity in total depression; not something you would expect from a worthy God.

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Of course I can imagine a more intelligent, longer lived, animal than Man as well as one with greater and more numerous types of perception, but who's to say that that isn't Man's evolutionary destiny and that this isn't a hypothetical God's plan?

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Thats not it I'm saying you can't possibly understand the existence outside of yours. It doesnt mean you have to be an animal with a long life span or better qualities to survival. It means you can't comprehend what it would be like to be in the shoes of some other existence. A plant? A cell? What is existence and life really? What is reality? Think outside the box and consider that you really know nothing. Our whole life could be a facade.

It's not, but if it were, then it's a truly great one, if you take the effort to both live it and appreciate it.


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Man is a work in progress

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Really? You know this how? Life as we know is just existence in progress yet it always recedes into nothing. Maybe god just views us as cable tv. Who the fuck knows really?

The record of evolution of life and, more recently, of human progress and civilization is nothing less than staggering in its beauty and greatness. Who cares if there's a creator watching. Whatever existence is and however long it lasts, just enjoy it, while you can.

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A perfect and loving God would no doubt, not only create the kind of Man whose pleasure and happiness derives from the exercise of his mental and physical faculties for survival, procreation as well as discovering the form of morality that is proper to his nature, but create a Man that could become his own perfecter, becoming the master of his own evolution.

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Are you talking about a perfect species? Whats the perfect existence? We thrive off of the happy chemical releases from our brain. Synapses telling us what we see and feel. Everything from the cellular level to the possibilities of the unknown. Saying without a doubt that god, the big bang or anything else created life is ignorant imo. as well as saying that this existence is the best that could be experienced.

I judge what I see by my own values. If these values are proper, then they are inherent to my nature. It is impossible for someone to rationally hold any other values than what his nature requires. By my standard of value, this is the best possible universe. No other standard can have meaning for me.


Quote
Life is an end in itself. The purpose and reward of life is in the process of living itself.  You may plan for the future, but never forget to live in the moment.


Quote
Yea you live in the moment but this moment is insignificant like the ant in your backyard. Can you imagine ceasing to exist? those memories and moments don't matter cuz they dont exist anymore... You are nothing. Nowhere with no memories. Like it never happened. Never effecting the reality around you. No remniscing. No emotions. Nothingness as time continues never ending.

While still living, we can care about what happens to others after we die, but, yes, once we die, nothing matters to us anymore. That's why there's no reason to worry about it and all the more reason to savor life while we still have it.
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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

Libertarianssuck

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2852 on: August 11, 2009, 12:27:41 PM »

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There is no other mode of conscious existence that could have any meaningful value to you. If, somehow, you could trade what you are for some other existence where you could be conscious, but without any needs or dangers, you would be cheated.


I just propose its impossible to know that existence is that linear and that there is a possibility of some better existence. There could be other modes of conscious existence but you're right. Even if there was it holds no meaningful value to us since we can't experience it.


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I judge what I see by my own values. If these values are proper, then they are inherent to my nature. It is impossible for someone to rationally hold any other values than what his nature requires. By my standard of value, this is the best possible universe. No other standard can have meaning for me.

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While still living, we can care about what happens to others after we die, but, yes, once we die, nothing matters to us anymore. That's why there's no reason to worry about it and all the more reason to savor life while we still have it.


Exactly
« Last Edit: August 11, 2009, 04:17:13 PM by Hideaki »
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hellbilly

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2853 on: August 11, 2009, 05:24:59 PM »

Anyone else think that Gene is using some kind of abstract language when he's typing all this stuff?

..maybe it's called "Eugeneics" or something like that :)


*in reference to Gene's call to the show regarding Ebonics heh heh
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ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2854 on: August 11, 2009, 08:42:25 PM »


A perfect and loving God would no doubt, not only create the kind of Man whose pleasure and happiness derives from the exercise of his mental and physical faculties for survival, procreation as well as discovering the form of morality that is proper to his nature, but create a Man that could become his own perfecter, becoming the master of his own evolution.

Man is a work in progress and as Man becomes seemingly Godlike in his own right, the "problem of evil" will persist. The day that this problem is "solved", if it ever came, would be the end of everything worth living for. That is the day that Man would truly be one with God in all his safe and boring drabness and if he had any love for his remembrance of the once noble spirit his progenitors, he might set the conditions for a new cycle of evolution to begin. God could then watch and have a vicarious  life through his new creations.



You and I see eye-to-eye on more things than not.  Of course I believe in God and you do not but our thinking is similar in coming to our conclusions.  I've said that God does not need us to believe in Him and His existence is certainly not dependent on whether we believe in Him or not.  His existence (or nonexistence as the case may be) cannot depend on His "creation" or that alone would undermine His magnificence. 

Libertarianssuck

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2855 on: August 12, 2009, 03:40:21 AM »


A perfect and loving God would no doubt, not only create the kind of Man whose pleasure and happiness derives from the exercise of his mental and physical faculties for survival, procreation as well as discovering the form of morality that is proper to his nature, but create a Man that could become his own perfecter, becoming the master of his own evolution.

Man is a work in progress and as Man becomes seemingly Godlike in his own right, the "problem of evil" will persist. The day that this problem is "solved", if it ever came, would be the end of everything worth living for. That is the day that Man would truly be one with God in all his safe and boring drabness and if he had any love for his remembrance of the once noble spirit his progenitors, he might set the conditions for a new cycle of evolution to begin. God could then watch and have a vicarious  life through his new creations.



You and I see eye-to-eye on more things than not.  Of course I believe in God and you do not but our thinking is similar in coming to our conclusions.  I've said that God does not need us to believe in Him and His existence is certainly not dependent on whether we believe in Him or not.  His existence (or nonexistence as the case may be) cannot depend on His "creation" or that alone would undermine His magnificence. 


Well we weren't arguing the existence of god. Rather the possibility of a better and more preferable existence to that of mankind. Even if god did exist and created us of course he wouldn't need us to believe in him or his existence. You may think you two have a lot in common but I bet there are probably some huge variations in order for one to be religious and the other not. As far as gods creation who says there couldn't be? Maybe there is some entity that holds even more power then the god we believe to exist.  Maybe they created god. Assuming god is even real. Even so did the creators creator have a creator? Was it necessary? Could you imagine something or someone exist throughout all time without ever having something creating it? When we die it really doesnt matter though. W/e we learned or understood is lost. Even the concept of god is gone. It all comes down to it all doesnt matter. Unless there is existence after death.
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ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2856 on: August 12, 2009, 09:52:56 PM »

It all comes down to it all doesnt matter. Unless there is existence after death.


Yup...

ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2857 on: August 17, 2009, 09:55:07 PM »

Count Leo Tolstoy, (sometimes identified as a "Christian anarchist)

    "Where force is set up as law, there will slavery be ... as long as there shall be tyranny supported by the bayonet there will be no distribution of wealth among men, but all the wealth will go to the tyrants. A striking illustration of the truth of this position is afforded by Henry George's project of nationalizing land. George proposed to declare all land government property, and to substitute a rent-tax for all direct and indirect taxes. That is, everyone using land should pay the government its rental value. What would be the outcome? Land would belong to the government: to the English the land of England, to the Americans the land of that country, and so forth; that is, there would be slavery, determined by the quantity of land in use. Perhaps the condition of some laborers (such as agricultural) would be improved; but since there would remain the forcible collection of the tax of the rental values, there would also remain slavery. The land cultivator, in a bad year, not being able to pay the rent exacted from him by force, would have to enslave himself to the man with money in order to keep his land and not lose everything."

It seems that the more I look into it, the ideas of freedom are not new at all but simply lost in our memory banks.  It's like we have been living in a fog for so long, we don't know what the scenery looks like anymore...

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2858 on: August 21, 2009, 04:45:26 AM »

That Tolstoy dude was a pessimist.



Hey did you know that the Catholic Church transformed Jesus the man into the widely recognizable Jesus the Saviour overnight?



ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2859 on: August 22, 2009, 09:42:59 AM »

That Tolstoy dude was a pessimist.


Interesting to note his understanding of the word "slavery" to include what he is describing as "indentured servitude".  So many claim that since we are not in chattel slavery it's not really slavery.  Tolstoy certainly did not buy into that definition.

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Hey did you know that the Catholic Church transformed Jesus the man into the widely recognizable Jesus the Saviour overnight?


Not sure what you are referring to here.  Do you have specifics or are you simply making your own claim as to what they did?

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2860 on: August 22, 2009, 10:00:26 AM »

Not sure what you are referring to here.  Do you have specifics or are you simply making your own claim as to what they did?


In 325,  Roman Emperor Constantine ordered a meeting of all (which is what catholic means) church leaders in order to settle whether Jesus was god or man. After much squabbling over the matter, a decision was made. "Yep," they decided. "Totally God."
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Russell Griswold

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2861 on: August 22, 2009, 10:23:48 AM »

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2862 on: August 22, 2009, 11:19:44 AM »

ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2863 on: August 23, 2009, 08:57:07 AM »

Not sure what you are referring to here.  Do you have specifics or are you simply making your own claim as to what they did?


In 325,  Roman Emperor Constantine ordered a meeting of all (which is what catholic means) church leaders in order to settle whether Jesus was god or man. After much squabbling over the matter, a decision was made. "Yep," they decided. "Totally God."

In your reference to the "Council of Nicaea", they did not "transform" Jesus overnight into "the Savior" but rather "The purpose of the council was to resolve disagreements arising from within the Church of Alexandria over the nature of Jesus" (Wikipedia).  Jesus was always viewed by believers as the Savior, but many years of disagreement by men had resulted in many different views.  The counsel made a determination of what they perceived to be the correct view from several common views held at that time.

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2864 on: August 23, 2009, 10:12:22 AM »

It could be that the average word on the street was that Jesus was God. But, it took a vote to make the deal official. A bunch of guys got together in a room, had a vote, and promoted a man into a god. But, it's okay. It happened all the time in the Roman world. Most of the Caesars were promoted to gods in much the same manner. .
« Last Edit: August 23, 2009, 10:14:03 AM by mikehz »
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