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Libertarianssuck

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2835 on: August 07, 2009, 08:26:01 PM »

If there is current evidence available for some creator then by all means I'd love to see it presented. Just because the world around us is governed by univeral laws doesnt mean life isn't chaotic. You can always have a different result outside of the norm with any event. In society, with our egocentric predicament and our fickle nature life is far from orderly. Seeing other countries and the worst that life has to offer I can't believe there is any creator. If there was, "it" abandoned us a long time ago or just didn't give a shit. Either way I couldn't worship them.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 08:33:31 PM by Hideaki »
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rabidfurby

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2836 on: August 07, 2009, 09:57:21 PM »

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markuzick

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2837 on: August 07, 2009, 10:15:34 PM »

Quote
If there is current evidence available for some creator then by all means I'd love to see it presented.

There is evidence that some people may, within the context of their limited knowledge and upbringing, believe to support the idea of God. I believe that they are mistaken. That's why I'm an atheist.

I have more respect for an open minded theist, whose belief I reject, than a dogmatist whose beliefs coincide more closely with mine.

Quote
Just because the world around us is governed by univeral laws doesnt mean life isn't chaotic. You can always have a different result outside of the norm with any event. In society, with our egocentric predicament and our fickle nature life is far from orderly.


Most animal's behaviors are governed primarily by inherited instinct. Man's behavior is governed by his beliefs, his values and his morality.

While this gives Mankind his greater adaptability and allows Mankind to become the dominant animal on earth, it also means that Mankind, like a child, must learn from his mistakes; we have no built in instinct for what's good or bad for our well being and happiness, except for those instincts that we acquire though our acquired beliefs and values; hence there is unavoidable confusion and chaos that comes with the liberty to make choices.

Quote
Seeing other countries and the worst that life has to offer I can't believe there is any creator. If there was, "it" abandoned us a long time ago or just didn't give a shit. Either way I couldn't worship them.

This is what's known as the problem of evil. The problem of evil is a very popular, but fallacious argument against the existence of God.

Without the struggle for survival life would have no value or meaning. A world without evil would be a world without life. If God made Man to be a being with perfect instinctual knowledge and immune to pain or death, then what challenges would there be? Man would be just be God's puppet; barely even a robot. What obstacles could he overcome? There would be no pain, but pleasure, if it even existed, would be one dimensional like sweetness without the contrasting notes of sourness and bitterness. Happiness, without the memory of sadness, loneliness and loss, would have no poignancy, but be a vague vegetative stupor. How could one even feel satisfaction or pride in any achievement that required no effort or pain? Could it even be called an achievement?

God, if he really loved Man, would leave him free to make his own mistakes; find his own values, create his own morality. He would not give commandments nor create miracles or interfere in any way. A loving God wouldn't protect us from ourselves.  If there is a God, then he did a perfect job.
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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

Libertarianssuck

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2838 on: August 07, 2009, 11:19:05 PM »

Quote
I have more respect for an open minded theist, whose belief I reject, than a dogmatist whose beliefs coincide more closely with mine.

I try to be open minded and i'm always willing to listen to evidence. Hence why I asked. Perception and feelings don't count as evidence.


Quote
While this gives Mankind his greater adaptability and allows Mankind to become the dominant animal on earth, it also means that Mankind, like a child, must learn from his mistakes; we have no built in instinct for what's good or bad for our well being and happiness, except for those instincts that we acquire though our acquired beliefs and values; hence there is unavoidable confusion and chaos that comes with the liberty to make choices.

Of course that's why we strive to create order and learn whats best but that doesn't mean there isn't chaos.



Quote
This is what's known as the problem of evil. The problem of evil is a very popular, but fallacious argument against the existence of God.
Without the struggle for survival life would have no value or meaning. A world without evil would be a world without life. If God made Man to be a being with perfect instinctual knowledge and immune to pain or death, then what challenges would there be? Man would be just be God's puppet; barely even a robot. What obstacles could he overcome? There would be no pain, but pleasure, if it even existed, would be one dimensional like sweetness without the contrasting notes of sourness and bitterness. Happiness, without the memory of sadness, loneliness and loss, would have no poignancy, but be a vague vegetative stupor. How could one even feel satisfaction or pride in any achievement that required no effort or pain? Could it even be called an achievement?
God, if he really loved Man, would leave him free to make his own mistakes; find his own values, create his own morality. He would not give commandments nor create miracles or interfere in any way. A loving God wouldn't protect us from ourselves.  If there is a God, then he did a perfect job.

What I meant is IF there is a god I wouldn't worship someone like that. I understand the idea of struggling to achieve great things in life and working towards something to be proud of. There are so many people who are just a victim of circumstance though. Who have no choice and control over there situation. It's nice to say you can do this or that with your life but you're only capable of doing so much with the tools and opportunities presented to you. I've dealt with plenty of shit in my own life but that pales in comparison to those across the globe.  In a world that's full of unfairness, pain, and suffering it is far from perfect. Of course if I had no emotions maybe I'd believe otherwise.
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ChristianAnarchist

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ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2840 on: August 08, 2009, 12:29:19 AM »

If there is current evidence available for some creator then by all means I'd love to see it presented.


Gladly.  My favorite is the Earth/Moon system...

The "evidence" is that this system is a created (read not natural) system.  Why would I say that?  Because the three "scientific" explanations are not possible given the facts relating to the orbit of the moon, the ratios of the bodies, and the decay rate of the orbit.  The three proposed methods of how this system came to be is capture, ejection, or formation.  Lets take them in that order.  There is no way that two bodies passing in space can be captured into a circular (or nearly so) orbit.  I have tried many times myself with an orbit simulator (wherein one can change the angle, speed of the bodies, mass of the bodies, etc.  There are three outcomes that I can determine.  In one instance, the bodies merely deflect their paths and pass each other.  Another outcome is they collide, and in the best case outcome, a very elliptical and unstable orbit can be obtained.  The second, ejection, also cannot be simulated to my knowledge (you may try to prove me wrong here).  The third is defeated by the decay rate of the system.  If they "formed" in place, it would have had to be so long ago that the rate of decay would have caused the moon to break up long ago.

Now before you say that I have not really submitted any "evidence" for creation but only shown that the "evidence" for the other proposals is lacking, I say that since there are only four (count them) possible scenarios for how this system came to be, disproving all but one, is evidence for the last...



This is only one of the "evidences" for creation that I can cite, but I just bet that you won't "accept" it (but it's good enough for me)...

Libertarianssuck

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2841 on: August 08, 2009, 12:32:59 AM »

I'm sure the orbit simulater works perfectly right?
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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2842 on: August 08, 2009, 01:01:35 AM »

What evidence is there that god loves you?

It is one thing to believe in intelligent design but those who think god loves them are silly.God is nothing but an absent father.Probably the worst example of a parent in history.That I would believe in  :)

It is also silly to think a perfect being who is so called infallible could create an imperfect human.The only explanation I can see is that the god who created the earth is an imposter who tried to create perfection by blending matter and spirit but made an error.The god of the old testament is a jealous angry being who is not the real creator.
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markuzick

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2843 on: August 08, 2009, 01:52:27 AM »

Quote
I have more respect for an open minded theist, whose belief I reject, than a dogmatist whose beliefs coincide more closely with mine.

Quote
I try to be open minded and i'm always willing to listen to evidence. Hence why I asked. Perception and feelings don't count as evidence.

That was an opinion about types of people in general that I was sharing with you, not an implication of anything negative about you at all. I'm sorry if you got that impression.


Quote
While this gives Mankind his greater adaptability and allows Mankind to become the dominant animal on earth, it also means that Mankind, like a child, must learn from his mistakes; we have no built in instinct for what's good or bad for our well being and happiness, except for those instincts that we acquire though our acquired beliefs and values; hence there is unavoidable confusion and chaos that comes with the liberty to make choices.

Quote
Of course that's why we strive to create order and learn whats best but that doesn't mean there isn't chaos.

If you re-read the quote, you'll see that I agreed that there is chaos, but that its cause is the inherent human characteristic of having the liberty to make mistakes on a scale that is denied to other animals.


Quote
This is what's known as the problem of evil. The problem of evil is a very popular, but fallacious argument against the existence of God.
Without the struggle for survival life would have no value or meaning. A world without evil would be a world without life. If God made Man to be a being with perfect instinctual knowledge and immune to pain or death, then what challenges would there be? Man would be just be God's puppet; barely even a robot. What obstacles could he overcome? There would be no pain, but pleasure, if it even existed, would be one dimensional like sweetness without the contrasting notes of sourness and bitterness. Happiness, without the memory of sadness, loneliness and loss, would have no poignancy, but be a vague vegetative stupor. How could one even feel satisfaction or pride in any achievement that required no effort or pain? Could it even be called an achievement?
God, if he really loved Man, would leave him free to make his own mistakes; find his own values, create his own morality. He would not give commandments nor create miracles or interfere in any way. A loving God wouldn't protect us from ourselves.  If there is a God, then he did a perfect job.

Quote
What I meant is IF there is a god I wouldn't worship someone like that. I understand the idea of struggling to achieve great things in life and working towards something to be proud of. There are so many people who are just a victim of circumstance though. Who have no choice and control over there situation. It's nice to say you can do this or that with your life but you're only capable of doing so much with the tools and opportunities presented to you. I've dealt with plenty of shit in my own life but that pales in comparison to those across the globe.  In a world that's full of unfairness, pain, and suffering it is far from perfect. Of course if I had no emotions maybe I'd believe otherwise.

The risk of tragedy, suffering and pain is the price we pay for the opportunity of being living, intelligent beings and while there are many natural evils that may overtake us, by far, the greatest and most numerous of these evils are the one that men inflict upon themselves and one-another. Still, there is great joy in the life of even the shortest lived and most unfortunate among us in the exercise and development of our physical and cognitive faculties that are required for our proper survival as human beings.

If you were God, then how would you improve the human condition, through the reduction or elimination of evils, in such a way as not to destroy the value of what it means to be human? I posit that there is no way for God to do such a thing without destroying the value of human life itself. Only Man himself, through the use of his God or nature given faculties, not God, can improve the quality of human existence. If it were my turn to be God, I wouldn't dare touch a thing.
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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

Libertarianssuck

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2844 on: August 08, 2009, 02:20:35 AM »

Quote
I try to be open minded and i'm always willing to listen to evidence. Hence why I asked. Perception and feelings don't count as evidence.

Quote
That was an opinion about types of people in general that I was sharing with you, not an implication of anything negative about you at all. I'm sorry if you got that impression.

Oh no you didn't but thanks for the apology. I was just saying I was reading everything gene said with an open mind but I didn't agree with his conclusion.



Quote
If you were God, then how would you improve the human condition, through the reduction or elimination of evils, in such a way as not to destroy the value of what it means to be human? I posit that there is no way for God to do such a thing without destroying the value of human life itself. Only Man himself, through the use of his God or nature given faculties, not God, can improve the quality of human existence. If it were my turn to be God, I wouldn't dare touch a thing.

I think that it's possible to create better conditions for life without taking away from the value and enjoyment. What it is I dont know since there are an infinite number of possibilities that could be dreamt of. After all the vastness of existence is incomprehensible.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2009, 02:33:32 AM by Hideaki »
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ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2845 on: August 08, 2009, 09:53:59 AM »

What evidence is there that god loves you?

It is one thing to believe in intelligent design but those who think god loves them are silly.God is nothing but an absent father.Probably the worst example of a parent in history.That I would believe in  :)

It is also silly to think a perfect being who is so called infallible could create an imperfect human.The only explanation I can see is that the god who created the earth is an imposter who tried to create perfection by blending matter and spirit but made an error.The god of the old testament is a jealous angry being who is not the real creator.

I'm sure you feel that way...

markuzick

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2846 on: August 09, 2009, 06:48:30 AM »


Quote
If you were God, then how would you improve the human condition, through the reduction or elimination of evils, in such a way as not to destroy the value of what it means to be human? I posit that there is no way for God to do such a thing without destroying the value of human life itself. Only Man himself, through the use of his God or nature given faculties, not God, can improve the quality of human existence. If it were my turn to be God, I wouldn't dare touch a thing.

I think that it's possible to create better conditions for life without taking away from the value and enjoyment. What it is I dont know since there are an infinite number of possibilities that could be dreamt of. After all the vastness of existence is incomprehensible.

You are proposing the possibility of a kind of "life" whose fundamental values and pleasurable rewards for seeking and attaining them, are not based upon survival. There would be no need to eat, procreate, clean, cloth or shelter our bodies; and no need to think of ways to do these things and how to cooperate with others in finding better ways to do them without hurting one-another in the process.

You also seem to be saying that if there was a loving God, he would wipe out life as we know it and replace it with this new kind of life. What could this new life be?  Would it even have any purpose or goals in its existence? On what basis would it merit or even need pleasure or happiness? Could you even call it life? Do you find the prospect of such a life in any way desirable or preferable to your life?

Any ideas? If there's an infinite number of possibilities, surely you can think of one.

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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

Libertarianssuck

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2847 on: August 09, 2009, 07:26:44 AM »


Quote
If you were God, then how would you improve the human condition, through the reduction or elimination of evils, in such a way as not to destroy the value of what it means to be human? I posit that there is no way for God to do such a thing without destroying the value of human life itself. Only Man himself, through the use of his God or nature given faculties, not God, can improve the quality of human existence. If it were my turn to be God, I wouldn't dare touch a thing.

I think that it's possible to create better conditions for life without taking away from the value and enjoyment. What it is I dont know since there are an infinite number of possibilities that could be dreamt of. After all the vastness of existence is incomprehensible.

You are proposing the possibility of a kind of "life" whose fundamental values and pleasurable rewards for seeking and attaining them, are not based upon survival. There would be no need to eat, procreate, clean, cloth or shelter our bodies; and no need to think of ways to do these things and how to cooperate with others in finding better ways to do them without hurting one-another in the process.

You also seem to be saying that if there was a loving God, he would wipe out life as we know it and replace it with this new kind of life. What could this new life be?  Would it even have any purpose or goals in its existence? On what basis would it merit or even need pleasure or happiness? Could you even call it life? Do you find the prospect of such a life in any way desirable or preferable to your life?

Any ideas? If there's an infinite number of possibilities, surely you can think of one.


I don't really know and I'm not trying to propose that it would be that way. I just meant that we can't possibly comprehend the vastness of space and reality. This is the only life we know and the only existence we experience. Not like we can stray from one existence to another. Can you understand how your cells communicate and why they do? Can we truly understand it's existence? We only know what we've tested around us which doesn't always prove to be right. How could we know that there couldn't be any better existence that might be more preferable to ours?


Quote
Would it even have any purpose or goals in its existence?

Does life have any purpose at all? What do we really effect? 100 years? 120? The concept of time has no end.  All our memories whether it be full of happiness, sadness, or a mixture of both.... Who remembers them? If you die are you reborn? Do you roam as a spirit for eternity? Do you become recycled into the atmosphere once again? What about those hardships and goals you work so hard to achieve? How could any of it matter or have purpose? Would you effect existence around you 700 years later? What about 2000? If you die and have no memories... no thoughts.... just ceasing to exist... it doesnt really mean anything.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2009, 07:36:40 AM by Hideaki »
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ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2848 on: August 09, 2009, 10:09:47 AM »

You two are doing really good.  I'm enjoying your discussion.  I believe that God is the reason for our existence and that is WHY everything else is so pointless - to contrast with the true meaning of life, communion with God...

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2849 on: August 10, 2009, 01:44:58 AM »

I don't really know and I'm not trying to propose that it would be that way. I just meant that we can't possibly comprehend the vastness of space and reality. This is the only life we know and the only existence we experience.

Then you have no reason to suppose that a hypothetical God could have created a more perfect human existence.

Quote
Not like we can stray from one existence to another. Can you understand how your cells communicate and why they do? Can we truly understand it's existence? We only know what we've tested around us which doesn't always prove to be right. How could we know that there couldn't be any better existence that might be more preferable to ours?

Of course I can imagine a more intelligent, longer lived, animal than Man as well as one with greater and more numerous types of perception, but who's to say that that isn't Man's evolutionary destiny and that this isn't a hypothetical God's plan?

A perfect and loving God would no doubt, not only create the kind of Man whose pleasure and happiness derives from the exercise of his mental and physical faculties for survival, procreation as well as discovering the form of morality that is proper to his nature, but create a Man that could become his own perfecter, becoming the master of his own evolution.

Man is a work in progress and as Man becomes seemingly Godlike in his own right, the "problem of evil" will persist. The day that this problem is "solved", if it ever came, would be the end of everything worth living for. That is the day that Man would truly be one with God in all his safe and boring drabness and if he had any love for his remembrance of the once noble spirit his progenitors, he might set the conditions for a new cycle of evolution to begin. God could then watch and have a vicarious  life through his new creations.


Quote
Does life have any purpose at all? What do we really effect? 100 years? 120? The concept of time has no end.  All our memories whether it be full of happiness, sadness, or a mixture of both.... Who remembers them? If you die are you reborn? Do you roam as a spirit for eternity? Do you become recycled into the atmosphere once again? What about those hardships and goals you work so hard to achieve? How could any of it matter or have purpose? Would you effect existence around you 700 years later? What about 2000? If you die and have no memories... no thoughts.... just ceasing to exist... it doesnt really mean anything.

Life is an end in itself. The purpose and reward of life is in the process of living itself.  You may plan for the future, but never forget to live in the moment.
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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.
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