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markuzick

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2805 on: July 19, 2009, 03:15:15 AM »

I posted this on another thread. One of the implications is that anarchism is more compatible with primitive theology than the Christian religion.


It seems to me that anarchy is very compatible with Christianity and may even be basic to it (it is with me anyway).  Christ, Paul, John the baptist, etc. were all pretty much "anarchist" as pertains to earthly "governments".  Even the few places where (primarily Paul) wrote that seem to indicate some kind of acceptance of this concept of "government", can be easily taken in a different light which I feel is the correct understanding - that the "powers" spoken of are Godly powers and not those of "government".  I have shown many times where this thing called "government" is nothing more than a cult with all the trimmings of a cult and indeed is the worst of all cults resulting in the deaths and imprisonment of billions of people (not to mention all the fortunes stolen)...

You are confusing "government" with "the state".

Do you govern your own life? Does that make you a state?

Isn't your voluntary participation in groups that govern the action of its members also an act of self government? Do these groups have to be states?

If you enter into a voluntary agreement with other people to govern some aspect of your actions regarding some purpose, be it a business enterprise or a civil organization of mutual defense, then aren't you a principle or client of a governmental agency that is not necessarily a state?

A state is simply a form of civil government that institutionalizes aggression. Why would you believe that aggression is the only way to govern? The free market is just voluntary government in action. Why couldn't non-monopolistic free enterprise serve as a model for civil governmental agencies that judge disputes and provide for defense and protective services in the competitive marketplace?

It's to the great advantage of the statists that so many people, including the enemies of the state, believe that the state is the only possible form of civil governance. This mindset is responsible for the fact that most supporters of liberty regard the state as a necessary evil. There is no such thing as a necessary evil. It's only a fallacy that's based upon a misconception that causes people to conclude that since government is a requirement of civilized society, then institutionalized aggression is too. This ignores the fact that the concept of government contains nothing that's inherently evil, but that only certain forms of government do.

If you understood this, then you would change your name to "ChristianVoluntaryist" or something along those lines.
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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2806 on: July 19, 2009, 01:39:27 PM »

I see "state" and "government" as one.  Sure the root word is "govern" and the definitions apply to our everyday lives but when refering to "government" you are talking about a noun.   This fictional thing called "government" is the same as the fictional thing called "state".  Neither have any real authority.  The "cult members" who believe in them however, will harm you if you question their imagined authority.

It may surprise you that I reject the "non-aggression principal".  Although I am a peace-loving child of God, I do believe there are times when you are justified with using the sword offencively.  Of course I believe that one always has the right to self-defence (even though it may not always be the wisest choice).

markuzick

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2807 on: July 20, 2009, 01:43:51 AM »

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I see "state" and "government" as one. 

That's how the statists wish you to see them, ("as one") even though it's irrational to do so.

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Sure the root word is "govern" and the definitions apply to our everyday lives but when referring to "government" you are talking about a noun. 
 

Whether as a noun or a verb, there are different varieties of government. The state may be a monopolistic form of government, but it doesn't have a monopoly over the concept of government.

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This fictional thing called "government" is the same as the fictional thing called "state".  Neither have any real authority.
 

The moral authority of legitimate government is based upon the consent of the governed. The "moral authority" of the state is based upon an irrational, anti-human morality that is supported by dogmatic beliefs.

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The "cult members" who believe in them however, will harm you if you question their imagined authority.

If you question my authority to rule my own life within the limits of the nonaggression principle, I won't try to harm you, but you'll get a scolding. If you try to actually interfere with my legitimate authority, I will try to defend myself with coercion and/or force.

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I do believe there are times when you are justified with using the sword offencively.

Then you are not even a voluntaryist. You should call yourself either "ChristianStatist" or "ChristianMinarchist".
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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2808 on: July 20, 2009, 09:40:46 AM »

1.  Saying there are "different varieties of government" is saying there are different varieties of fiction...

2.  If you claim that "government" has "moral authority" based on the "consent of the governed" --  I DO NOT CONSENT !!

3.  You have absolute "authority" over your life and I certainly would not interfer with it...

4.  I have never applied the term "voluntaryist" to my life..  you stated in a prior post that I should call myself that, I do not accept that label.

markuzick

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2809 on: July 21, 2009, 07:00:39 AM »

Quote
1.  Saying there are "different varieties of government" is saying there are different varieties of fiction...

The general meaning of "government" is control. Are all forms of control the same? If government is a fiction, then why do you care if it exists or not? It's anarchy that is a fiction. Even in the case of the anarchy that results from the failure of the state, you still have individuals and small groups who govern their actions amid the chaos.

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2.  If you claim that "government" has "moral authority" based on the "consent of the governed"

No. I didn't say that! Not all government is based upon the consent of the governed, but in order for for a government to be legitimate, it's a requirement.
Quote

 --  I DO NOT CONSENT !!

In a voluntaryist society you are not required to consent to any kind of contract or organization. You can live as a hermit if you wish, but you will have to defend your rights against people or organizations that can easily overwhelm you in a dispute.

Quote
3.  You have absolute "authority" over your life and I certainly would not interfere with it...

Wrong! I don't have the moral authority to commit aggression.

Quote
4.  I have never applied the term "voluntaryist" to my life..  you stated in a prior post that I should call myself that, I do not accept that label.

I already said that since you believe in limited aggression, that makes you a limited statist or a minarchist. If you have a better term to describe yourself, then be my guest, but if you insist on "anarchist", then you're not being honest. Statism only causes an increase in anarchy, but is not identical to it.

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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2810 on: July 21, 2009, 12:21:26 PM »

Statism only causes an increase in anarchy, but is not identical to it.


You are just trying to pull my chain now aren't you?  You can't be serious...

ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2811 on: July 21, 2009, 03:21:05 PM »

A good link to reading material on Christian Anarchy... (although I don't agree with all of it)

http://www.hccentral.com/eller12/

Now to continue responding-

Quote
1.  Saying there are "different varieties of government" is saying there are different varieties of fiction...

The general meaning of "government" is control. Are all forms of control the same? If government is a fiction, then why do you care if it exists or not? It's anarchy that is a fiction. Even in the case of the anarchy that results from the failure of the state, you still have individuals and small groups who govern their actions amid the chaos.
Govern certainly does mean "control" but again, "government" is a different animal and total fiction.  Sure, I can "govern" myself.  Together I can associate with a like-minded group to accomplish a stated task (contract).  If this is what you are calling "government" then certainly one can freely make contract with others to the benefit of all involved.  This is not what I am referring to as the fiction and I think you know that.  The "fiction" is this pie-in-the-sky idea that some "thing" called the "USA" (or insert your favorite fiction here) has a LEGITIMATE authority to force me into anything.  I did not contract for any benefit nor obligation to this fiction and neither did you.  There are certainly a bunch of men with guns who BELIEVE that there is some obligation for me to perform some function (like pay taxes) and they are willing to hurt me if I don't, but that does not make them legitimate, it only makes them thugs...

Quote
Quote
2.  If you claim that "government" has "moral authority" based on the "consent of the governed"

No. I didn't say that! Not all government is based upon the consent of the governed, but in order for for a government to be legitimate, it's a requirement.

If it's a requirement for them to be legitimate that I consent, then I DO NOT CONSENT !!!   There.  Now they are illegitimate...
Quote
Quote
--  I DO NOT CONSENT !!
Quote
In a voluntaryist society you are not required to consent to any kind of contract or organization. You can live as a hermit if you wish, but you will have to defend your rights against people or organizations that can easily overwhelm you in a dispute.

Which is why I can contract with like minded individuals to provide a means of protection.
Quote

Quote
3.  You have absolute "authority" over your life and I certainly would not interfere with it...

Wrong! I don't have the moral authority to commit aggression.

No argument here...
Quote

Quote
4.  I have never applied the term "voluntaryist" to my life..  you stated in a prior post that I should call myself that, I do not accept that label.

I already said that since you believe in limited aggression, that makes you a limited statist or a minarchist. If you have a better term to describe yourself, then be my guest, but if you insist on "anarchist", then you're not being honest.


Sorry, no.  I do not fit into the "statist" or "minarchist" category (but I'm sure you feel that I do)...
Anarchist is the correct term as I reject all forms of "government".  I don't know how I can be any more clear.  I do, however, address this "easter bunny" idea to those who are not ready to believe the truth as if it really exists in order to bring them closer to the truth.  For instance, I will tell people (easter bunny believers) that we must "audit the fed" (and I love Dr. Ron Paul) for the simple reason that they will (if successful in passing their bill) find that through smoke and mirrors, certain powerful MEN have stolen very real property from billions of very real people through manipulation of numbers on a page...

Once people see these nasty men for what they really are, they will come closer to the realization that there IS NO AUTHORITY CALLED "GOVERNMENT".  There are only little men hiding behind curtains pulling levers trying to scare everyone into giving up some of their hard earned property...
« Last Edit: July 21, 2009, 03:24:53 PM by ChristianAnarchist »
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markuzick

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2812 on: July 22, 2009, 12:22:42 AM »

Statism only causes an increase in anarchy, but is not identical to it.


You are just trying to pull my chain now aren't you?  You can't be serious...


Read my signature.

Quote
As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

Do you think I put it there just to pull your chain?

The free market, to whatever extent it exists, is nothing more than voluntary self government. Even when large organizations of individuals are formed, if they are voluntary in nature, then, by definition, they require the voluntary consent of every client or principle that involves himself. This involvement is an act of self government for every individual who does so.

It is the free market or voluntary governmental organizations that the state limits or destroys and, in so doing, the state destroys the peaceful order of civilized life, bringing uncertainty, fear and the destruction of good will engendered by the opportunity for mutual profit though voluntary cooperation in the marketplace.

The arbitrary decrees of the state amount to the rule of disorder. One time friends, neighbors and associates become envious rivals that fight over the scraps leftover from what the state has plundered and rivals over monopoly privileges granted by a divisive state as patronage to its supporters.

The fiat laws of fiat government act as the catalyst for the destruction of legitimate government and , eventually, as the state increases the level of anarchy though destruction of the civilized order upon which it parasitically feeds, the failure of the state itself as it implodes into chaos or what is commonly known as a state of anarchy.
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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

markuzick

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2813 on: July 22, 2009, 06:25:47 AM »

A good link to reading material on Christian Anarchy... (although I don't agree with all of it)

http://www.hccentral.com/eller12/

I took a peek at the begining where I presumed Vernard Eller would define his terms. I was pleasantly surprised to see this:

Quote
For us, then, "arky" identifies any principle of governance claiming to be of primal value for society. "Government" (that which is determined to govern  human action and events) is a good synonym--as long as we are clear, that political arkys are far from being the only "governments" around. Not at all; churches, schools, philosophies, social standards, peer pressures, fads and fashions, advertising, planning techniques, psychological and sociological theories--all are arkys out to govern us.

But then he makes the fatal mistake of swallowing whole, a variation of the statist premise that poisons our language to favor statism and discredit the free market. This premise is that the only possible form of government is the state.

Since it's clear from the quote above that he understands this to be false, a reasonable person would think that he would then reject the state in favor these other forms of government, with the proviso that they govern strictly in accordance with voluntary consent. But no! Instead he insists that voluntary consent is impossible; that all businesses and organizations in the market, even philosophies and theories, gain their influence through imposition. This sounds all too much like the communists and socialists claim that people are slaves to the free market, or that freedom is slavery.

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Obviously, the idea of "power" goes hand in hand with "arky"; the two are inseparable. Indeed, every time Paul uses "arky" in the sense of "principalities," he couples it with one of the Greek "power" words. Yet regarding both "power" and "arky" we must make a crucial specification: we are always supposing a power or a government that is imposed upon its constituency. It is, of course, proper to speak of, say, "the power of love." Yet this is power in an entirely different sense of the word in that it carries no hint of imposition at all. Looking only at the phrase itself; "the kingdom of God" would appear to be an "arky" no different from the others. Yet we will come to see that this is not so. When Jesus said "My kingdom is not of this world," he was saying that, although all worldly arkys have to be impositional, his is radically different in that it does not have to be--and in fact is not.

And the following is the most damning of all:

Quote
Consequently, for secular anarchists the solution is "autonomy"--the self being a law unto itself (which is what we customarily have understood "anarchy" to be). However, Christianity contends that autonomy is simply another form of heteronomy, that to use my own self-image as the arky governing myself is actually to impose a heteronomous arky upon me. The assumption that I am the one who best knows myself and knows what is best for myself is to forget that I am a creature (a sinful creature, even) and that there is a Creator who, being my Creator (and also being somewhat smarter than I am), knows me much better than I ever can know myself.

Amazingly, he is truly an anarchist, even by my understanding of the word "anarchy", with which he clearly agrees. To do so, though, he rejects self ownership as the tyranny of the self over the "virtue" of unthinking, abject submission to God's rules, as set forth, I presume, in a book.

 
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Sure, I can "govern" myself.  Together I can associate with a like-minded group to accomplish a stated task (contract).  If this is what you are calling "government" then certainly one can freely make contract with others to the benefit of all involved.  This is not what I am referring to as the fiction and I think you know that.
 

Actually; my understanding of "government" is identical to that of Vernard Eller. There are all kinds of government. What may have you confused is the idea of civil government, as opposed to the government of a manufacturing company or the government of a sports league. What you fail to grasp is that there is no reason that an agency of civil government cannot be operated as any other enterprise that competes for clients and employees with other similar enterprises in a free market.

Quote
The "fiction" is this pie-in-the-sky idea that some "thing" called the "USA" (or insert your favorite fiction here) has a LEGITIMATE authority to force me into anything.  I did not contract for any benefit nor obligation to this fiction and neither did you.  There are certainly a bunch of men with guns who BELIEVE that there is some obligation for me to perform some function (like pay taxes) and they are willing to hurt me if I don't, but that does not make them legitimate, it only makes them thugs...

Yes. One fiction is that the state is legitimate, by any standard other than the state's own arbitrary decree.

The bigger fiction is that the state is the only possible model for government and, hence, a necessary evil. There is no such thing as a necessary evil.

Quote
In a voluntaryist society you are not required to consent to any kind of contract or organization. You can live as a hermit if you wish, but you will have to defend your rights against people or organizations that can easily overwhelm you in a dispute.

Quote
Which is why I can contract with like minded individuals to provide a means of protection.

If you have agreed for your involvement with this organization to be governed by the rules of this contract, assuming the contract forbids the use of aggressive force or coercion, then you are involved with voluntary civil government.

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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2814 on: July 24, 2009, 09:11:20 PM »

Statism only causes an increase in anarchy, but is not identical to it.


You are just trying to pull my chain now aren't you?  You can't be serious...


Read my signature.

Quote
As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

Do you think I put it there just to pull your chain?

The free market, to whatever extent it exists, is nothing more than voluntary self government. Even when large organizations of individuals are formed, if they are voluntary in nature, then, by definition, they require the voluntary consent of every client or principle that involves himself. This involvement is an act of self government for every individual who does so.


You are talking about contract now and certainly one has the right to enter into contract with others.  If you want to call your contract "government", be my guest.  Just don't expect me to accept that term for myself.  I recognize these as contracts and any obligation under these contracts are the business of the parties who have entered into the contract.  I will address any contract that I have signed onto as a party thereto.

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2815 on: July 24, 2009, 09:27:48 PM »

If you have agreed for your involvement with this organization to be governed by the rules of this contract, assuming the contract forbids the use of aggressive force or coercion, then you are involved with voluntary civil government.


Again, I do not "forbid" any such thing.  If I did, then I would be accepting your "values" over mine and that would be a form of arky.  I will not accept your restriction on my life and I don't expect you to accept any restriction from me. 

I do not intend to quote all of your argument above as I can address all of it by pointing out one area where I disagree with your premise.  I disagree that there ever can be or ever has been anything called "government" and indeed, we all do live in "anarchy" at all times.  You see everyone already lives by only their own rules.  I can show this by simply asking you two questions (and presuppose your answer to the first one). 

1.  Who's rules do you live by?  Your own or someone else's?

(If you answer your own rules, then you are an anarchist and you live in anarchy - if you answer "someone else" then you need to address the following)

2.  Who made the decision for you to follow this other entity's rules?

So you see we all decide to follow our own "rules" even if the "rules" that are "ours" were stolen or adopted from another source...

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2816 on: July 24, 2009, 09:31:32 PM »

This could go on for years.
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markuzick

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2817 on: July 25, 2009, 04:19:12 AM »

Statism only causes an increase in anarchy, but is not identical to it.


You are just trying to pull my chain now aren't you?  You can't be serious...


Read my signature.

Quote
As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

Do you think I put it there just to pull your chain?

The free market, to whatever extent it exists, is nothing more than voluntary self government. Even when large organizations of individuals are formed, if they are voluntary in nature, then, by definition, they require the voluntary consent of every client or principle that involves himself. This involvement is an act of self government for every individual who does so.


You are talking about contract now and certainly one has the right to enter into contract with others.  If you want to call your contract "government", be my guest.  Just don't expect me to accept that term for myself.  I recognize these as contracts and any obligation under these contracts are the business of the parties who have entered into the contract.  I will address any contract that I have signed onto as a party thereto.


Your argument amounts to: "Since I hate the word government, then I will use synonyms and euphemisms for the word government if it refers to any of its legitimate forms".
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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

markuzick

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2818 on: July 25, 2009, 04:42:20 AM »

If you have agreed for your involvement with this organization to be governed by the rules of this contract, assuming the contract forbids the use of aggressive force or coercion, then you are involved with voluntary civil government.


Quote
Again, I do not "forbid" any such thing.  If I did, then I would be accepting your "values" over mine and that would be a form of arky.  I will not accept your restriction on my life and I don't expect you to accept any restriction from me. 

If you are involved in such an organization, then you are, indeed, involved in an "arky".

Quote
I do not intend to quote all of your argument above as I can address all of it by pointing out one area where I disagree with your premise.  I disagree that there ever can be or ever has been anything called "government" and indeed, we all do live in "anarchy" at all times.  You see everyone already lives by only their own rules.  I can show this by simply asking you two questions (and presuppose your answer to the first one). 

1.  Who's rules do you live by?  Your own or someone else's?

(If you answer your own rules, then you are an anarchist and you live in anarchy - if you answer "someone else" then you need to address the following)

2.  Who made the decision for you to follow this other entity's rules?

So you see we all decide to follow our own "rules" even if the "rules" that are "ours" were stolen or adopted from another source...

You have the right to agree to abide by the rules of a voluntary (non-aggressive) organization. Your right to do so comes from your right to self government.

Even if you live as a hermit, never entering into any contracts with other people, you are still governing your own actions. "Christian anarchy" concurs with me on this issue, labeling self government as tyranny, because for them, any control by Man, even if it's non-aggressive and only over his own actions, is government/tyranny.

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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2819 on: July 25, 2009, 09:16:49 AM »

Your argument amounts to: "Since I hate the word government, then I will use synonyms and euphemisms for the word government if it refers to any of its legitimate forms".

Well, no, actually my argument is that there are no LEGITIMATE forms of a fiction called "government"...
(and "self-government" does not count here as it is a totally different animal than the accepted idea of "government"...)
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