Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...

[Johnson]

No, actually you had a completely different position before reading that article.  You hardly had the time (check post history) to review volumes of additional references...

Hardly, I don't see much of a difference between being a slave with no free will at all, and being a slave that only has free will insofar as the ability to make the decision to disobey that will cause one to BURN for eternity. To my mind, there is not much of a difference. My position was SLIGHTLY different, not COMPLETELY different. Don't be melodramatic.

Also, you'd be surprised at how fast I can find information with the assistance of Google. I had plenty of time to find multiple sources.

[ChristianAnarchist]

I've never made the claim that I support state funded science.

Good for you.  Now you might "make a stand" by only promoting the "science" that you can cite that has not been achieved by stealing my money and was not politically motivated (if you can find any)...

[Dylboz]

Let's play everyone's favorite game, SPOT THAT LOGICAL FALLACY!

"X used to believe that Y is true, but X changed his mind. Therefore, Y is false."

It's merely a demonstration that the "high priests" you guys look up to keep changing their minds, so why do you keep believing them??

Global warming, Global cooling, Global warming, Global cooling, Global warming, Global cooling, Global warming, Global cooling, Global warming, Global cooling, Global warming, Global cooling, Global warming, Global cooling, Global warming, Global cooling, Global warming, Global cooling, Global warming, Global cooling, Global warming, Global cooling, Global warming, Global cooling, Global warming, Global cooling, Global warming, Global cooling, Global warming, Global cooling, Global warming, Global cooling, Global warming, Global cooling,

etc...

Oh, is that your jag. You want the certainty that comes from a pre-packaged set of beliefs, unchanged in the face of mountains of contrary evidence, as opposed to the constantly refined and revised view of things that comes from the scientific method and its sometimes contentious debates at the margins. For most people, the mind changing thing is a net positive for science, because it continues to get closer and closer to the truth, while you stubbornly remain as far from the truth as you always have been, trying to pick at this little thing or that so you can try and discredit the work and conclusions of far smarter, far braver and far more honest men than yourself, because the truth about how little we know and how fast it keeps changing scares the crap out of you.

And you can know exactly what the ratios are in newly formed rocks. Just go to Hawaii, hork off a chunk of freshly cooled basalt and measure it. Viola!

[ChristianAnarchist]

I'm assuming then, to claim to be a Christian, that you at least believe in a past being that had magical powers and was supposedly the son of a deity?

Not only can you assume such, but I have stated it many times here (check the last 170 pages of posts)...

[ChristianAnarchist]

No, actually you had a completely different position before reading that article.  You hardly had the time (check post history) to review volumes of additional references...

Hardly, I don't see much of a difference between being a slave with no free will at all, and being a slave that only has free will insofar as the ability to make the decision to disobey that will cause one to BURN for eternity. To my mind, there is not much of a difference. My position was SLIGHTLY different, not COMPLETELY different. Don't be melodramatic.

Also, you'd be surprised at how fast I can find information with the assistance of Google. I had plenty of time to find multiple sources.

Strawman.  You do not portray what I believe at all...

[Johnson]

I've never made the claim that I support state funded science.

Good for you.  Now you might "make a stand" by only promoting the "science" that you can cite that has not been achieved by stealing my money and was not politically motivated (if you can find any)...

Only if you attack scientific beliefs using nothing you gleaned from researchers who were religiously motivated.

At any rate, I don't think I have been doing a lot of science citing.... I'm usually sticking to the realm of philosophy... I'm only tearing down your scientific nonsense when YOU bring it up. We are in the same morally ambiguous territory.

[Johnson]

No, actually you had a completely different position before reading that article.  You hardly had the time (check post history) to review volumes of additional references...

Hardly, I don't see much of a difference between being a slave with no free will at all, and being a slave that only has free will insofar as the ability to make the decision to disobey that will cause one to BURN for eternity. To my mind, there is not much of a difference. My position was SLIGHTLY different, not COMPLETELY different. Don't be melodramatic.

Also, you'd be surprised at how fast I can find information with the assistance of Google. I had plenty of time to find multiple sources.

Strawman.  You do not portray what I believe at all...

What DO you believe then? Whatever it is, has nothing to do with the bible.  Angels are GODs bitches. According to basically every source. Maybe you know of something that says otherwise that I do not?

[ChristianAnarchist]

Let's play everyone's favorite game, SPOT THAT LOGICAL FALLACY!

"X used to believe that Y is true, but X changed his mind. Therefore, Y is false."

It's merely a demonstration that the "high priests" you guys look up to keep changing their minds, so why do you keep believing them??

Global warming, Global cooling, Global warming, Global cooling, Global warming, Global cooling, Global warming, Global cooling, Global warming, Global cooling, Global warming, Global cooling, Global warming, Global cooling, Global warming, Global cooling, Global warming, Global cooling, Global warming, Global cooling, Global warming, Global cooling, Global warming, Global cooling, Global warming, Global cooling, Global warming, Global cooling, Global warming, Global cooling, Global warming, Global cooling, Global warming, Global cooling,

etc...

Oh, is that your jag. You want the certainty that comes from a pre-packaged set of beliefs, unchanged in the face of mountains of contrary evidence, as opposed to the constantly refined and revised view of things that comes from the scientific method and its sometimes contentious debates at the margins. For most people, the mind changing thing is a net positive for science, because it continues to get closer and closer to the truth, while you stubbornly remain as far from the truth as you always have been, trying to pick at this little thing or that so you can try and discredit the work and conclusions of far smarter, far braver and far more honest men than yourself, because the truth about how little we know and how fast it keeps changing scares the crap out of you.

No, my "jag" is that these guys keep feeding us a line of bull and somehow people like you just keep sucking it up.  It's like all the financial gurus who have been telling us all along how great the economy is going just keep borrowing and spending...  The problem is people are still listening to the likes of Bernanke, Paulson etc just like people still keep putting their trust in these guys who steal your money to fight a non-existent "man-induced global climate change".  What a bunch of crap.  Yet the sheeple just keep on sucking it up and letting their money be extorted to pay $175 per cow "flatalentch tax" etc., etc., etc.


[/quote]

And you can know exactly what the ratios are in newly formed rocks. Just go to Hawaii, hork off a chunk of freshly cooled basalt and measure it. Viola!
[/quote]

That will only tell you what that sample's ratio is.  Try another geographical area and you will get another ratio.  Even another volcano on the same island will most likely give you different results...

[Johnson]

I'm assuming then, to claim to be a Christian, that you at least believe in a past being that had magical powers and was supposedly the son of a deity?

Not only can you assume such, but I have stated it many times here (check the last 170 pages of posts)...

You missed the rest of that question, I would like clarity as to the list of special powers you believe Christ had.

Was it more like... a mutant powers or more like magic fairytale powers? Was he more like old school comic books... or more like the new tv shows about people with superpowers? I'm curious.

[ChristianAnarchist]

No, actually you had a completely different position before reading that article.  You hardly had the time (check post history) to review volumes of additional references...

Hardly, I don't see much of a difference between being a slave with no free will at all, and being a slave that only has free will insofar as the ability to make the decision to disobey that will cause one to BURN for eternity. To my mind, there is not much of a difference. My position was SLIGHTLY different, not COMPLETELY different. Don't be melodramatic.

Also, you'd be surprised at how fast I can find information with the assistance of Google. I had plenty of time to find multiple sources.

Strawman.  You do not portray what I believe at all...

What DO you believe then? Whatever it is, has nothing to do with the bible.  Angels are GODs bitches. According to basically every source. Maybe you know of something that says otherwise that I do not?

Absolutely.

[John Shaw]

Just to lighten the mood - A sentiment that I think we can all agree on:

[ChristianAnarchist]

I'm assuming then, to claim to be a Christian, that you at least believe in a past being that had magical powers and was supposedly the son of a deity?

Not only can you assume such, but I have stated it many times here (check the last 170 pages of posts)...

You missed the rest of that question, I would like clarity as to the list of special powers you believe Christ had.

Was it more like... a mutant powers or more like magic fairytale powers? Was he more like old school comic books... or more like the new tv shows about people with superpowers? I'm curious.

Why are you so curious?  You seem to be doing a fine job of speculating.  The answer is He has whatever powers He wants...  (Think "omnipotent", "omnipresent"...)

[Dylboz]

It isn't too hard to get beneath the media reporting on science and how the government uses it against the people to see the actual science, the stuff that matters and isn't part of some agenda. Those projects happen at the margins, I know, my ex-wife was (well, is, but I like to think of her in the past tense) a scientist working in a DARPA lab. The stuff like physics and cosmology and evolutionary biology and other primary sciences have made a great deal of contributions to our understanding of the universe, our earth and ourselves, and those conclusions are far less controversial than you make them out to be, and you are just throwing out the baby with the bathwater because of the cutting edge (hence unsettled) and/or controversial stuff that gets used to push careers and agendas these days. All you have to do is go to the sources and read them for yourself. You can do it!

And if you think that scientists who align themselves with the state to push their agendas have a sorry record of pushing bullshit, I invite you to take a brief tour of history and look at the horrific record of awful bullshit and its terrible consequences pushed by the Church (in league with the state) over the years. Just that one, the Catholic Church (there are many others just as bad, hell, Pat Robertson even). So forgive me if I think YOU a stupid sheeple for buying that line of garbage when it has been exposed time and again for a fairytale and means of exploiting and extracting money from people. It doesn't even rest on any kind of reasonable assumption derived from testable FACTS about the world around us.

If your argument is that you don't like what a few scientists do with your tax dollars, or you think global warming is a scam, and you Googled a couple of creationists who are picking at the edges of REAL scientists work with their "questions," and therefore ALL SCIENCE is suspect and you'll take Jesus and those parts of the Bible you like instead, thankyouverymuch... well, Gene, you don't look too convincing (or bright).

[Rillion]

"Debating" with Gene is pointless.  Not because his beliefs are erroneous (and they are that, in spades), but because he deliberately lies.  You could say the sky is blue and two pages later he'll claim you said it was green.  You can quote yourself saying it was blue and he'll ignore it.  You can argue the hell out of something, and he will fail to respond and then say the exact opposite later in discussion.  Gene is dishonest.  Not all Christians are by far, and not all opponents of evolution or science are, but Gene is.  End of story.

With that in mind, here's this:

[Dylboz]

And just as an aside, it is the conflicting agendas, competing labs and universities and the contentious debate among scientists each seeking new discoveries that keeps it honest and always more closely approximating the truth with it's theories, which ironically is precisely the reason you reject it, Gene. Are you just intellectually lazy? Wait, don't bother answering that...