Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...

[bakerbaker]

the ancients knew more than we do today about understanding our world.

Only because it's been hidden from us. It's still there.

it's buried next to the ark of the covenant.
zelda told me what's up.

[HOO-HAA]

A review of recent posts finds a concern that freewill cannot exist because God knows the future.  I hardly find this convincing.  Because someone has KNOWLEDGE of what you will do is not the same as MAKING you do it.  You have the freewill to make your decisions.  You were CREATED with freewill AND rights.  Your rights and your freewill follow you wherever you travel  in the universe.  When I'm in China, I have a right to keep and bear arms, for instance.  There are, however, armed CULT MEMBERS who feel (mistakenly) that they have authority to take my weapons or even kill me.  That does not mean that my rights do not exist, it means that a gang of thugs want to VIOLATE those rights.  If I were to carry a pistol in China (they are available on the black market) I would do so concealed.  Indeed, in China, it is less likely that I would be searched then here...

My problem isn't with predestination, Gene - although, I do agree that is an outrageous scorn of liberty - yet, I've more of a problem with god's character (mainly in the OT) and behaviour throughout the scriptures.

The god I read about is a tyrant - a raping, pillaging, genocide-inducing, jealous bastard, with no care for either life or liberty. Here's a glimpse at him at his very worst:

First there's the book of Job. What we have there, in essence, is a wager between god and satan. Biblegod is challenged (because he's bored one day?) to torture a man in order to test his faith. Job loses literally everything - his wife, kids, possessions, livestock, health etc. Just so god can prove a point...

...that's not a fun god.

Need more convincing?

A little flesh-eating for the horror fans:
 
(Lev 26:27-28 NRSV) But if, despite this, you disobey me, and continue hostile to me, I will continue hostile to you in fury; I in turn will punish you myself sevenfold for your sins.

(Lev 26:29 NRSV) You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters.

(Jer 19:9 NRSV) And I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and all shall eat the flesh of their neighbors in the siege, and in the distress with which their enemies and those who seek their life afflict them.

And here's more baby-killing sponsored by the ever-charitible god:

(Exo 12:29 NRSV) At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sat on his throne to the firstborn of the prisoner who was in the dungeon, and all the firstborn of the livestock.

(Ezek 20:26 NRSV) I defiled them through their very gifts, in their offering up all their firstborn, in order that I might horrify them, so that they might know that I am the LORD.

(Hosea 13:16 NRSV) Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.

(Lev 26:22 NRSV) I will let loose wild animals against you, and they shall bereave you of your children…

Now, is that a nice god? Taken out of context, perhaps? Think about it this way - if all of the above was written in Mein Kampf, would you be trying to find a context that lets Hitler off the hook?

You can grab a lot of stuff from the bible to show god at his very worst - a dictator who will kill, mame and spread disease over his own and other gods' followers. The above is just a brief overview. I could go on for pages and pages.

Anyway, I'll leave you to it, Gene. Mucho respect to you, dude. I don't think any of us are going to budge on our positions

[rabidfurby]

As a side note I now see that I have "delete" privileges here on this thread (not sure if this is the new policy).

Deleting posts by anyone who disagrees with you is the only sensible answer.

[Taors]

I have no doubt about the advantages of yoga and that the ancients knew more than we do today about understanding our world.  We confuse ourselves with test tubes (not that they aren't useful) and forget about our own harmony with the creation and our fellow men (neuter gender gals...).

I have to claim ignorance about Muhammad as I have not read the Koran and don't know when I will have the time to check it out.  I have no aversion to reading it but of course I have pre-conceived notions of what is there because of what others have told me.  I have learned along time ago, however, to not put too much stock in what others say.

And Dr. Z... is there a better word than Thelemite? I always jump to that term because that's my background, what term do you use? Unless perhaps have you ascended beyond the level of distinction making

Thelema is a specific religion started by Aleister Crowley in the early 20th century with the introduction of the Ordo Templi Orientis, based on The Book of the Law that was supposedly channeled through him in Egypt in the spring of 1904. I don't think it's bad or anything, it's just not for me, at least in my current stage of development. First and foremost, I consider myself open minded in all things. I have been a Christian, an agnostic, an existentialist, an atheist, an Objectivist, a fascist, and a socialist among other things throughout my life. Secondly, you could call me a modern day shaman, or mystic. Personally I'm fond of the term Renaissance Man, but call me what you will.

I like to employ many techniques from various schools of thought (an example would be sigil magic, which is more about developing the psyche into an ideal model of your choosing...in other words, dominating the subconscious to control actions you might otherwise not have any control over; Taoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Yoga, Neuro-Linguistic Programming, psychedelic experience, etc.), and a Qabalistic magician/Hermeticist second because it's the philosophy/practice I most agree with and get the most out of at the present moment.

Some people disagree on whether or not the 'entities' and 'beings' magicians and shaman work with are 'real', whatever that means. A lot of magic has to do with psychology, and one line of thought is that these beings are various archetypes within the mind representing different modes of the psyche. Having a relationship with these beings can lead to deeper insight of the self. I don't have enough experience in invocation or evocation to have an informed opinion on the matter; however...whatever these beings are, communication with them is very real, and through our PMs I believe you know what I'm talking about. They are known as the Jinn in Islam, and they have been with humanity since the beginning of time.

At the moment I'm in the process of contacting Auriel, the Archangel of the element Earth. All I will say is that I was pleasantly surprised earlier this morning.

[BonerJoe]

DO CHRISTIANS LOVE FILIPINOS?

[Johnson]

I'm not going to move or delete the above post - Gene can take care of that one if he wants to.

[BonerJoe]

I'm not going to delete the above post - Gene can take care of that one if he wants to.

GENE WONT DELETE IT BECAUSE HE'S NOT A RACIST, UNLIKE SOMEONE NAMED SCHUYLER?

WHO THE FUCK NAMES A KID SOMETHING GAY LIKE THAT ANYWAYS?

[ChristianAnarchist]

A review of recent posts finds a concern that freewill cannot exist because God knows the future.  I hardly find this convincing.  Because someone has KNOWLEDGE of what you will do is not the same as MAKING you do it.  You have the freewill to make your decisions.  You were CREATED with freewill AND rights.  Your rights and your freewill follow you wherever you travel  in the universe.  When I'm in China, I have a right to keep and bear arms, for instance.  There are, however, armed CULT MEMBERS who feel (mistakenly) that they have authority to take my weapons or even kill me.  That does not mean that my rights do not exist, it means that a gang of thugs want to VIOLATE those rights.  If I were to carry a pistol in China (they are available on the black market) I would do so concealed.  Indeed, in China, it is less likely that I would be searched then here...

My problem isn't with predestination, Gene - although, I do agree that is an outrageous scorn of liberty - yet, I've more of a problem with god's character (mainly in the OT) and behaviour throughout the scriptures.

The god I read about is a tyrant - a raping, pillaging, genocide-inducing, jealous bastard, with no care for either life or liberty. Here's a glimpse at him at his very worst:

First there's the book of Job. What we have there, in essence, is a wager between god and satan. Biblegod is challenged (because he's bored one day?) to torture a man in order to test his faith. Job loses literally everything - his wife, kids, possessions, livestock, health etc. Just so god can prove a point...

...that's not a fun god.

...........

Now, is that a nice god? Taken out of context, perhaps? Think about it this way - if all of the above was written in Mein Kampf, would you be trying to find a context that lets Hitler off the hook?

You can grab a lot of stuff from the bible to show god at his very worst - a dictator who will kill, mame and spread disease over his own and other gods' followers. The above is just a brief overview. I could go on for pages and pages.

Anyway, I'll leave you to it, Gene. Mucho respect to you, dude. I don't think any of us are going to budge on our positions

Yes, all that and more is in the group of writings that several men in the past decided to group together into one place and name "The Bible".  I'm not sure how true all of it is and certainly doesn't sound like the Creator I know and love.  I know a loving Creator who lets us learn from our environment, but I don't believe he helps to make us more miserable for fun.  So is He suffering from a dual personality?  I don't think so.  I can only believe that those things either never occurred or occurred differently than is recorded. 

[ChristianAnarchist]

I'm not going to move or delete the above post - Gene can take care of that one if he wants to.

Not sure why I'd delete it or why you would.  It's just a comment about Filipinos. 

DO CHRISTIANS LOVE FILIPINOS?

(Of course Christians love all peoples)

I might delete him just because he's mean and nasty but in this case he's not particularly so.  I'm not sure why joe's status has been changed to "shithead" but I've had nothing but trouble from the beginning with him.  I do, however find the idea of changing someones status to "shithead" to be just plain childish.  If someone is causing trouble on the boards just warn them and then ban them.  I really disagree with banning someone for "racist" comments anyway.  Free speech includes unpopular speech and God knows you allow all kinds of unpopular garbage on this board.  Racist speech is not the most vulgar for sure and sometimes can be quite funny (lighten up everyone).  We used to have a much better sense of humor when I was young.  Indeed, racist humor can really show how stupid racism really is.  Indeed, allowing someone to show they are a rabid racist can show how stupid racism really is.  Why is it only "black" people can have fun with racist humor?? 

[Johnson]

gene, check out the rubber room thread to get a better idea about bonerjoe aka hansen.

Also, we've been clear the humor is generally excluded, and Ive even made a safe zone for their idiocy...

[JohnnyRebel]

God didn't torture Job.  Satan tormented Job and God allowed it because He knew that Job's faith was strong enough to stand against anything Satan could do outside of death.

It rains on the just and the unjust much like the sun shines on the plowing of the wicked.

What is the foundation of your faith Gene?  If you question the Bible I wonder how you could accept any of it.  What part is true and what part isn't?  Do you decide what parts are false based on how they fit your reality?

[Rillion]

God didn't torture Job.  Satan tormented Job and God allowed it because He knew that Job's faith was strong enough to stand against anything Satan could do outside of death.

1. Actually, Job's faith did falter.

2.  God, in this scenario, is still a douchebag.

[John Shaw]

Shhh. Christians don't like talking about the book of Job.

In before "The old testament doesn't apply anymore"

[JohnnyRebel]

1. Actually, Job's faith did falter.

2.  God, in this scenario, is still a douchebag.

please explain

[Rillion]

1. Actually, Job's faith did falter.

2.  God, in this scenario, is still a douchebag.

please explain

The original concept was that Satan basically double-dog dared God to test one of his children not to give up faith, and God took him up on it. It went down pretty much like this:

8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

9 "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. 10 "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."

12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."

What happens next? Well, first Job's servants are all killed. Then all of his sheep are burnt by fire from heaven. The some guys run off with his camels. Then the roof falls in on his sons and daughters, and smashes them all flat. What does Job say?

"Naked I came from my mother's womb,
and naked I will depart. [c]
The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away;
may the name of the LORD be praised."

So Satan comes back to check in with God-- "Hey God, how's it going with your servant?"
God: "Still worships me, nyah nyah."
Satan: "Oh really? I know-- strike at his body, that'll do the trick!"

So Job was then covered with painful sores from head to toe. Job's wife says "Holy crap, Job, how long are you going to worship a god who allows this?" Job replies "Shut up, bitch!" Job's friends come to visit, and they can barely recognize him, he looks so bad. They weep and tear their clothes apart, then sit with him for a week without saying anything about how terrible he looks.

Job seems to have an idea, though, because he then curses the day he was born, wishing instead that he had been buried as a stillborn child. To say that Job is in a funk is an understatement.

Then somebody named Eliphaz the Temanite (who?) speaks up: "Hey Job, quit your bitching! God brought you into this world, and he can take you out!" He takes a very long time to say this.

Job replies: "God really seems to have it in for me. I really wish he would just kill me off now, and have done with it......dammit." He takes a very long time to say this.

Then somebody named Bildad the Shuhite (who?) speaks up: "Hey Job, don't be dogging on God like that. He has your back, really. You'll see. Any time now, you'll see!"

Job replies: "Yeah, I guess you're right. I didn't do anything wrong, but I hate myself anyway. God is still awesome, of course."

Then somebody named Zophar the Naamathite (good god, how long is this conversation going to be?) speaks up: "Hey man, don't even pretend like you're blameless. God will smite you down for talk like that, and you'll deserve it."

Job replies: "Well, shit. Everybody's laughing at me. The world doesn't seem beautiful anymore. But since God created it, I guess that's his prerogative."

Then Eliphaz the Temanite says: "God's gonna wash out your mouth with soap, boy!"

Job replies: "Yeah, I know. But I'm going to go ahead and say it: God's being a real dickweed."

Then Bildad the Shuhite says: "Start talking some sense again, and I'll talk to you. But that's enough of that!"

Job replies: "Meh. If you're not going to help me, just go away. I'm sick of you guys yelling at me. I haven't seen any of you all covered in sores lately."

But they did not go away. They stuck around and argued with him for a while longer. Job, meanwhile, continued to complain. For a very, very long time.

So finally the three guys figure out that Job wasn't going to budge, and they stop hassling him.
But Elihu son of Barakel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, shows up. He's very angry with Job for justifying himself rather than God.

So Elihu takes his turn arguing with Job for a while, but doesn't get any further than the other guys.

But then-- FINALLY-- God himself decides to show up: "Job, you smartass! You weren't here when I made the earth, were you? No, I didn't think so. No, shut up-- you've done enough talking. You weren't here when I hung the stars, am I correct? English boy, do you speak it? No, I guess you speak Hebrew. Anyway, my point being....shut up, bitch. My way or the highway.

Job replies: "All right, you win. I suck. I am the slime of the universe. I despise myself-- I'm just going to go dig a hole and lie in it now, okay?"

Then God castigates Job's friends for butting in on Job's business, and tells them that if they go sacrifice some bulls for him and Job prays for them, they'll be fine. So they do, and he does, and they are. Then God throws a big party for Job and his friends, and all of his brothers and sisters (who have escaped death for some reason) attend. God gives Job a bunch of cash, and some more sons and daughters to replace the ones who were smashed to death earlier. And a whole bunch of livestock.

Later, God to Satan: "You owe me a dollar. You shouldn't have bet me anyway, you know, because I'm omniscient (that means all knowing), so I knew all along that this would be the way things turn out!"

Satan: "If you knew all along, then why the hell did you allow Job to have his entire life destroyed like that?"

God: "Errr...."