Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...

[Taors]

Sigh.

Gene, you are so deluded by dogma that you can't even see the inherent divinity displayed in your religious text of choice. Try reading the Bhagavad Gita sometime, or the Tao Te Ching. The Egyptian and Tibetan Books of the Dead are really good too. With some meditation you'll find the basic simple truth in every one of them.

I'm so sorry for you...BUT, if it works for you, it works for you, eh mon capitán?

Oh but there is a great deal of truth in all those writings and many that you don't list.  One can take the truth and learn from it.  You also have to beware of the "changes" in all texts throughout history that corrupt those writings and the wisdom that was there.  I have no doubt that if you could read the ORIGINAL of all these texts (quite impossible, I'm afraid) you would have a much clearer representation of the "truth" (you may have forgotten that I spend some time in China each year)...

the Will of Father.

This is all the truth that you need. However, you have to read between the lines.

[Balden]

A review of recent posts finds a concern that freewill cannot exist because God knows the future.

But does God know what you will do before you yourself decide to do it? If so, then I can hardly see how this does not imply determinism, or that all actions are predetermined. Does God know weather I will vote for Obama, McCain, or not vote at all? If he knows for certain, for example, that I will vote for Obama, BEFORE I HAVE DECIDED TO DO SO MYSELF, then have I not been deprived of the opportunity to vote McCain? Why should I then be held responsible for the horrible policies of Obama, if I had no hand in deciding my fate?

Why should Rosie O'Donnell be held responsible for her gun-grabbing ambitions if her actions are entirely knowable long before they ever occur to her, or long before O'Donnell is even born? How could she resist the apparently undeniable omniscience of GOD?

Having foreknowledge of how an event will end does not affect the outcome of the event nor influence the event.

If God knows, with 100% absolute certainty, that person A will decide to perform action B, before person A is ever born, does this not deprive person A the ability to perform action C instead? If person A can defy God's foreknowledge, and instead perform action C, then God is not omniscient, for his prediction was false.

Furthermore, I think it is important to note that we are debating free will and decision, not mere unconscious events. You can predict that the sun will rise tomorrow morning, but this is insignificant to our debate about free will, since the sun (presumably) has no free will. However, if I could predict with absolute certainty the decisions of others, then this renders the decisions of others deterministic, because it constricts their field of action to only one possible choice: my will, or rather my prediction. Anything less would invalidate my omniscience.

[The Muslim Agorist]

Oh but there is a great deal of truth in all those writings and many that you don't list.  One can take the truth and learn from it.  You also have to beware of the "changes" in all texts throughout history that corrupt those writings and the wisdom that was there.  I have no doubt that if you could read the ORIGINAL of all these texts (quite impossible, I'm afraid) you would have a much clearer representation of the "truth" (you may have forgotten that I spend some time in China each year)...

the Will of Father.

This is all the truth that you need. However, you have to read between the lines.

With all respect Gene... the Quran is still an anomaly in your world view. Even secular academics agree it's unchanged. You can read the ORIGINAL. If your arguing for a prophetic origin of all the scriptures, like it seems you are, I think it's worth your consideration. Also, it post dates the Gospel... which means, if it's origins are authentic, it could clear up the deteriorations in the story that you even acknowledge.

So I'm curious... have you read it? And if so... what was Muhammad

(  ) Lunatic     (  ) Charlatan     (  ) Poet    (  ) Sorcerer   (  ) A prophet seeking not his own will, but the Will of God.

[Taors]

Oh but there is a great deal of truth in all those writings and many that you don't list.  One can take the truth and learn from it.  You also have to beware of the "changes" in all texts throughout history that corrupt those writings and the wisdom that was there.  I have no doubt that if you could read the ORIGINAL of all these texts (quite impossible, I'm afraid) you would have a much clearer representation of the "truth" (you may have forgotten that I spend some time in China each year)...

the Will of Father.

This is all the truth that you need. However, you have to read between the lines.

With all respect Gene... the Quran is still an anomaly in your world view. Even secular academics agree it's unchanged. You can read the ORIGINAL. If your arguing for a prophetic origin of all the scriptures, like it seems you are, I think it's worth your consideration. Also, it post dates the Gospel... which means, if it's origins are authentic, it could clear up the deteriorations in the story that you even acknowledge.

So I'm curious... have you read it? And if so... what was Muhammad

(  ) Lunatic     (  ) Charlatan     (  ) Poet    (  ) Sorcerer   (  ) A prophet seeking not his own will, but the Will of God.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not talking about the Quran or Islam itself, just the four little words you mentioned (hey, four words! Tetragrammaton anybody?).

(x) Poet   
(x) Sorcerer   
(x) A prophet seeking not his own will, but the Will of God.

But here's my analysis from what I've read.

[The Muslim Agorist]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not talking about the Quran or Islam itself, just the four little words you mentioned (hey, four words! Tetragrammaton anybody?).

(x) Poet   
(x) Sorcerer   
(x) A prophet seeking not his own will, but the Will of God.

But here's my analysis from what I've read.

Thelemite?

I don't believe we've met Dr. Z. but this is the Crowley party line on Muhammad. Just curious.

EDIT: And that was five words... the Pentagrammaton?

[Taors]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not talking about the Quran or Islam itself, just the four little words you mentioned (hey, four words! Tetragrammaton anybody?).

(x) Poet   
(x) Sorcerer   
(x) A prophet seeking not his own will, but the Will of God.

But here's my analysis from what I've read.

Thelemite?

I don't believe we've met Dr. Z. but this is the Crowley party line on Muhammad. Just curious.

EDIT: And that was five words... the Pentagrammaton?

Dude, it's Taors. Come on, now. And no, I'm not a Thelemite.

You said 4 words, not 5. The Will of Father. I assume that you were referring to "I AM BECOMING THAT I AM BECOMING"?

[The Muslim Agorist]

You said 4 words, not 5. The Will of Father. I assume that you were referring to "I AM BECOMING THAT I AM BECOMING"?

Wow... this conversation makes so much more sense now... what's up man?
I thought you meant the words that were options (prophet, lunatic, charlatan, poet, sorcerer)

[Taors]

You said 4 words, not 5. The Will of Father. I assume that you were referring to "I AM BECOMING THAT I AM BECOMING"?

Wow... this conversation makes so much more sense now... what's up man?
I thought you meant the words that were options (prophet, lunatic, charlatan, poet, sorcerer)

Nothing much. Just trying to waft through all this fucking dogma.

Your dogma's cooler than Gene's though. At least the 5 prayer positions are yogic in nature and actually DO something. You can hardly find anything like that in Christianity! At least, modern day Christianity. The Gnostics knew their shit.

[The Muslim Agorist]

Nothing much. Just trying to waft through all this fucking dogma.

Your dogma's cooler than Gene's though. At least the 5 prayer positions are yogic in nature and actually DO something.

I just recently found a book called, "To Pray as a Jew." It was by an Orthodox Rabbi trying to call people back to Judaism's original ritual, which incidentally was just about identical to the Islamic prayer, even included washing before prayer.



In all likelihood this is how Jesus... and all the prophet's prayed. Probably why yoga is what it is today.

[Taors]

Nothing much. Just trying to waft through all this fucking dogma.

Your dogma's cooler than Gene's though. At least the 5 prayer positions are yogic in nature and actually DO something.

I just recently found a book called, "To Pray as a Jew." It was by an Orthodox Rabbi trying to call people back to Judaism's original ritual, which incidentally was just about identical to the Islamic prayer, even included washing before prayer.



In all likelihood this is how Jesus... and all the prophet's prayed. Probably why yoga is what it is today.

I don't think there's any doubt that Jesus knew about the energy centers in the body.

http://www.amazon.com/Yoga-Jesus-Understanding-Teachings-Gospels/dp/0876125569

[ChristianAnarchist]

I have no doubt about the advantages of yoga and that the ancients knew more than we do today about understanding our world.  We confuse ourselves with test tubes (not that they aren't useful) and forget about our own harmony with the creation and our fellow men (neuter gender gals...).

I have to claim ignorance about Muhammad as I have not read the Koran and don't know when I will have the time to check it out.  I have no aversion to reading it but of course I have pre-conceived notions of what is there because of what others have told me.  I have learned along time ago, however, to not put too much stock in what others say.

[Taors]

the ancients knew more than we do today about understanding our world.

Only because it's been hidden from us. It's still there.

[ChristianAnarchist]

A review of recent posts finds a concern that freewill cannot exist because God knows the future.

But does God know what you will do before you yourself decide to do it? If so, then I can hardly see how this does not imply determinism, or that all actions are predetermined. Does God know weather I will vote for Obama, McCain, or not vote at all? If he knows for certain, for example, that I will vote for Obama, BEFORE I HAVE DECIDED TO DO SO MYSELF, then have I not been deprived of the opportunity to vote McCain? Why should I then be held responsible for the horrible policies of Obama, if I had no hand in deciding my fate?

Why should Rosie O'Donnell be held responsible for her gun-grabbing ambitions if her actions are entirely knowable long before they ever occur to her, or long before O'Donnell is even born? How could she resist the apparently undeniable omniscience of GOD?

Having foreknowledge of how an event will end does not affect the outcome of the event nor influence the event.

If God knows, with 100% absolute certainty, that person A will decide to perform action B, before person A is ever born, does this not deprive person A the ability to perform action C instead? If person A can defy God's foreknowledge, and instead perform action C, then God is not omniscient, for his prediction was false.

Furthermore, I think it is important to note that we are debating free will and decision, not mere unconscious events. You can predict that the sun will rise tomorrow morning, but this is insignificant to our debate about free will, since the sun (presumably) has no free will. However, if I could predict with absolute certainty the decisions of others, then this renders the decisions of others deterministic, because it constricts their field of action to only one possible choice: my will, or rather my prediction. Anything less would invalidate my omniscience.

At this point we simply have to disagree.  I do not see your claim that simply knowing something in advance affects the outcome.  I do not accept that supposition and if you do, then we will never be able to come to agreement.  You are seeing a problem that I simply don't see as real.  I don't believe that just because God knows what you will do before you do it removes your ABILITY to have chosen a different path.  It's simply that He KNEW what path you would ultimately CHOOSE. 

[ChristianAnarchist]

As a side note I now see that I have "delete" privileges here on this thread (not sure if this is the new policy).  Now everyone MUST behave or the great and powerful CA will make you vanish, BUAHHHH, HAAAA, HAAA HA...

Edit:  Just found the reason for the change.  Good idea...

[The Muslim Agorist]

I have no doubt about the advantages of yoga and that the ancients knew more than we do today about understanding our world.  We confuse ourselves with test tubes (not that they aren't useful) and forget about our own harmony with the creation and our fellow men (neuter gender gals...).

I have to claim ignorance about Muhammad as I have not read the Koran and don't know when I will have the time to check it out.  I have no aversion to reading it but of course I have pre-conceived notions of what is there because of what others have told me.  I have learned along time ago, however, to not put too much stock in what others say.

You know Gene, I appreciate that. If you ever decide you want some materials PM me an mailing address and I'll make you a care package.

And Dr. Z... is there a better word than Thelemite? I always jump to that term because that's my background, what term do you use? Unless perhaps have you ascended beyond the level of distinction making