Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...

[Elitist Bitch]

This thread needs to DIAF.

[ChristianAnarchist]

This thread needs to DIAF.

Check the history.  I did not revive this thread but now that it's again active, I will address questions posed here (as below)...

[ChristianAnarchist]

Gene - first, let me say that I totally love to hear your calls on FTL. You're both witty and educated in the points you make to Ian and Mark, and it always adds to the show when you ring in. Keep calling in!

However, while we both agree on anarchy, I would hasten to quiz you on how the xian doctrine is compatible with individualism and anarchy

You have mentioned 'Adam and Eve' - my understanding of the xian concept of 'original sin' is that Adam/ Eve were punished due to accepting the Seprent's offer of 'knowledge.'

How can you justify punishment of a person (of a whole world?!) who, simply, want to know more? Is god's action of denying 'knowledge' (self-awareness) not going to reduce the personal responsibility a person has, in favour of his totalitarian regime? Surely, to the individualist - as well as to the anarchist - 'knowledge' is not only power, but also vital?

Thank you.  I do use "logic" to come to my conclusion that God is real and that a man/God commonly referred to
as "Jesus" lived and died (and was resurrected) some 2k years ago.  I do acknowledge that there is most probably
some deterioration of the story over time.  I do not know exactly what has been changed but looking at the
evidence we have, one would have to really stretch the facts to claim that "Jesus" did not exist.  You then
have 3 logical conclusions.  Either He was a lunatic, or he was a charlatan, or He was indeed what has been
recorded that He said he was - God incarnate.  Since most of the apostles died for their belief rather than
"admit" it was all a hoax, it is highly unlikely that they did not believe.  Since we were not there, we have
only the testimony of those who were.  We have to determine the reliability of the witnesses for ourselves.
From my position, I find these men very believable and find the historical evidence also supportive of these
conclusions.  There is a book called "More than a Carpenter" that I feel pretty much blows away the two
arguments against Jesus being just who he says he is. 

On the other side, I find the "logic" in evolution (as well as the facts) to be not convincing.  I also find
most "scientists" that I used to work with at the University of Nevada Physics department to be quite
understanding of my positions and even admitting that there is no proof that I am not correct. 

Logic prevails...

[mikehz]

This thread needs to DIAF.

Check the history.  I did not revive this thread but now that it's again active, I will address questions posed here (as below)...

You never DID answer me how that whole "salvation" thing works. Let's see...God kills his son, and by some Rube Goldberg system that absolves everyone else of their sins. Sorry, I just don't see the mechanism of this.

[ChristianAnarchist]

This thread needs to DIAF.

Check the history.  I did not revive this thread but now that it's again active, I will address questions posed here (as below)...

You never DID answer me how that whole "salvation" thing works. Let's see...God kills his son, and by some Rube Goldberg system that absolves everyone else of their sins. Sorry, I just don't see the mechanism of this.

Maybe it's because I don't KNOW how the whole "salvation" thing works.  I can guess or speculate, but I don't think that's what you want.  I think what you want is "proof" and I don't have it and can't offer it.  As I've presented throughout this entire thread, it's my BELIEF.  I will pit my BELIEF against the BELIEF that we all crawled up from a gooey mess some billions of years ago any day. 

Now as to what I BELIEVE after reading what I can find on the subject and weighing all of that against my personal logic, I conclude that man was CREATED perfect and sinless.  That through an act of rebellion against his Creator, our ancestor lost that perfection and imperfection (like an infection) set in causing death and misery in the lives of all human offspring.  This, I "believe" is the reason we see DNA information degrading over the last several thousand years (inbreeding and defective reproduction).  I do not understand how but this "sacrifice" of God becoming one of us and living among us and dieing for us is the "elixir" to our illness.  I do not believe in a "hell" as that seems to be a more recent belief that perhaps was a political tool (OH NO, SAY IT AIN'T SO) to scare people into submission.  I do believe that all men will someday reunite with their Creator as intended from the beginning (yes, even Jeffery Dalhmer). 

Now, don't say I haven't addressed your question.  This is the best answer I can give you and I sure ain't going to guarantee you that it's correct...

[The Muslim Agorist]

looking at the evidence we have, one would have to really stretch the facts to claim that "Jesus" did not exist.  You then have 3 logical conclusions.  Either He was a lunatic, or he was a charlatan, or He was indeed what has been recorded that He said he was - God incarnate.

It's funny but this is exactly the logical argument Gary Miller uses for Muhammad. In fact this is exactly the dilemma that the pagan Arabs of Arabia found themselves in arguing against Muhammad in his lifetime... except they also accused him of being a poet, and a sorcerer.

I believe that Jesus was as he said he was, a prophet seeking not his own will, but the Will of Father.

It's good to read you again Gene. It's been too long. As usual we basically agree... sort of. Or at least we've reached only slightly different conclusions the same way. Someday I'd like to discuss it over coffee.

[HOO-HAA]

This thread needs to DIAF.

Check the history.  I did not revive this thread but now that it's again active, I will address questions posed here (as below)...

Gene - thanks for the reply, however you didn't answer my questionl; why does 'knowledge' threaten god? Why is the pursuit of 'knowledge' seen not only as sinful, but as the very origin of sin?

[ChristianAnarchist]

This thread needs to DIAF.

Check the history.  I did not revive this thread but now that it's again active, I will address questions posed here (as below)...

Gene - thanks for the reply, however you didn't answer my questionl; why does 'knowledge' threaten god? Why is the pursuit of 'knowledge' seen not only as sinful, but as the very origin of sin?

Knowledge does not threaten God.  The "knowledge" of good and evil (or rather the knowledge of how to DO evil) was what our Creator did not want for us.  As His creation, He loves us more than anything else and did not want for us to suffer (suffering is the result of doing evil).  As far as "scientific" knowledge, this is good for us as long as we use it constructively.  We, however, tend to use our knowledge for destruction instead.  No matter what our "new" discoveries are, we pervert them into weapons and death.  Even our newfound knowledge of DNA is being used to develop new "race specific" biological weapons.  My very good friend who is a professor at UNR physics department gets most of his funding for "stockpile stewardship".  All these "good" people are little cogs in the wheels of destruction and death.  I've said many times that "science" will ultimately end the human race when someone invents that one super machine capable of destroying us and some P.H.D. decides to "push the button" to see if it works...

Don't even ask me for an "answer" to this problem as I don't think there is one.  Mankind is not capable of either of the two only "solutions" I see: 1. Cease all further advancement or 2. Use all future discoveries with responsibilities (yeah, right!!).

[mikehz]

Maybe it's because I don't KNOW how the whole "salvation" thing works.  I can guess or speculate, but I don't think that's what you want.  I think what you want is "proof" and I don't have it and can't offer it.  As I've presented throughout this entire thread, it's my BELIEF.  I will pit my BELIEF against the BELIEF that we all crawled up from a gooey mess some billions of years ago any day. 

Now as to what I BELIEVE after reading what I can find on the subject and weighing all of that against my personal logic, I conclude that man was CREATED perfect and sinless.  That through an act of rebellion against his Creator, our ancestor lost that perfection and imperfection (like an infection) set in causing death and misery in the lives of all human offspring.  This, I "believe" is the reason we see DNA information degrading over the last several thousand years (inbreeding and defective reproduction).  I do not understand how but this "sacrifice" of God becoming one of us and living among us and dieing for us is the "elixir" to our illness.  I do not believe in a "hell" as that seems to be a more recent belief that perhaps was a political tool (OH NO, SAY IT AIN'T SO) to scare people into submission.  I do believe that all men will someday reunite with their Creator as intended from the beginning (yes, even Jeffery Dalhmer). 

Now, don't say I haven't addressed your question.  This is the best answer I can give you and I sure ain't going to guarantee you that it's correct...

Of course, being God--who supposedly can do anything--He could have simply used his magic to resolve the situation without resorting to the whole "death on the cross" scenario. There really wasn't much need for all of the pain and angst.

[ChristianAnarchist]

Now, don't say I haven't addressed your question.  This is the best answer I can give you and I sure ain't going to guarantee you that it's correct...

Of course, being God--who supposedly can do anything--He could have simply used his magic to resolve the situation without resorting to the whole "death on the cross" scenario. There really wasn't much need for all of the pain and angst.

I guess He disagrees with you on that point...

[Taors]

Sigh.

Gene, you are so deluded by dogma that you can't even see the inherent divinity displayed in your religious text of choice. Try reading the Bhagavad Gita sometime, or the Tao Te Ching. The Egyptian and Tibetan Books of the Dead are really good too. With some meditation you'll find the basic simple truth in every one of them.

I'm so sorry for you...BUT, if it works for you, it works for you, eh mon capitán?

[HOO-HAA]

Gene, I think you are reading into the 'knowledge of good and evil' what you feel would suit your anarchy standpoint best.

What we're really talking about is 'choice' - ie: choice to do what one wants; choice to do 'good' or 'evil' or whatever one decides is 'good' or 'evil.'

Surely that's the most basic principle of liberty? Surely god's intervention was prohibition?

In my opinion, religion is like the opposite of liberty. It takes personal responsibility away from its adherents and offers mind control (either blatant or subtle) in its place.

[ChristianAnarchist]

Gene, I think you are reading into the 'knowledge of good and evil' what you feel would suit your anarchy standpoint best.

What we're really talking about is 'choice' - ie: choice to do what one wants; choice to do 'good' or 'evil' or whatever one decides is 'good' or 'evil.'

Surely that's the most basic principle of liberty? Surely god's intervention was prohibition?

In my opinion, religion is like the opposite of liberty. It takes personal responsibility away from its adherents and offers mind control (either blatant or subtle) in its place.

Actually, God did just that.  He gave mankind the choice and mankind chose to "know" and "do" evil.  That's freedom.  God advised against it as He knows that evil only causes grief and pain.  If he didn't give them the freedom to do as they wanted, they never could have "eaten" from that tree now could they have?

 

[John Shaw]

Actually, God did just that.  He gave mankind the choice and mankind chose to "know" and "do" evil.  That's freedom.  God advised against it as He knows that evil only causes grief and pain.  If he didn't give them the freedom to do as they wanted, they never could have "eaten" from that tree now could they have?

Then Gods creation was flawed.

[ChristianAnarchist]

Sigh.

Gene, you are so deluded by dogma that you can't even see the inherent divinity displayed in your religious text of choice. Try reading the Bhagavad Gita sometime, or the Tao Te Ching. The Egyptian and Tibetan Books of the Dead are really good too. With some meditation you'll find the basic simple truth in every one of them.

I'm so sorry for you...BUT, if it works for you, it works for you, eh mon capitán?

Oh but there is a great deal of truth in all those writings and many that you don't list.  One can take the truth and learn from it.  You also have to beware of the "changes" in all texts throughout history that corrupt those writings and the wisdom that was there.  I have no doubt that if you could read the ORIGINAL of all these texts (quite impossible, I'm afraid) you would have a much clearer representation of the "truth" (you may have forgotten that I spend some time in China each year)...