Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...

[The Muslim Agorist]

Things would have been so simple if this "God" would have just made the Bible with his/her own hands and created it to be indestructible and shiny and pretty. But no. I can take a Bible, take out a page or two, type up my own rendition of Mark, or John, and have a little party afterwards. Hell, I can make a whole Bible just for ME, and call myself a MORMON or something...

And have lots of wives.

WHOA.

Why would an infallible being trust fallible creatures to preserve his 'word' when he knew they were just going to muck it up and cause disbelief?

But if he wanted his divine word to be spread out among the masses and believed, shouldn't he have taken a little more time and care with the work? He's insured a lot of people a place in hell because of how unbelievable the Bible tends to be.

I'd love to get in on this, as Bible criticism is one of my favorite subjects, but I just don't agree with either side here.

From my perspective, God didn't want his message preserved in a botched cut and paste job, so he sent a final revelation in his own words, which confirmed all that was true, and corrected all that was false of what man kind had brought. He preserves it himself, as he says, "Surely I have brought this book and surely I will preserve it." It has been unchanged, and it even has a shiny cover... usually.

It even challenges people to imitate the perfection of it's prose... which no one has ever done. This is proven mathematically. So you couldn't rip out a page and write your own.

The only criticisms I've ever heard from the Quran were from people who didn't like the rules... and usually didn't even have them right. People who found contradictions, at least all that I've seen, were the result of a poor understanding of Arabic grammar.

Oh, yeah, Caveman, you never answered whether you thought my conclusions were rational.

[ChristianAnarchist]

And I believe there is "some truth" available pretty much everywhere.  The Koran, Confucius, American Indians, Buddhism, and other cultural sources are insights to what men before us have written about their understanding of the universe which, by my definition, is insight into the mind of the Creator.  Even most science is useful for peering into the mind of God...

[money dollars]

It even challenges people to imitate the perfection of it's prose... which no one has ever done.

I don't think there is such a think as perfect prose....but I have heard this before.

This is proven mathematically.

I have not heard this.

ohhhhh...

http://www.submission.org/quran/quranthewordofgod.html

O N E  O F  T H E  G R E A T  M I R A C L E S [74:35]

For the first time in history, we have a built-in proof that the Quran is the unaltered, original and complete word of God. A proof that is verifiable by anyone. So powerful is the proof, that in a few generations it will become obvious, that any religion or any group of people, which advocates faith, as a pre-requisite or basis for belief will immediately be exposed as a false religion. Since we now have proof, blind faith is no longer valid.

"You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for
yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the
brain, and you are responsible for using them." (17:36)

The mathematical structure of the Quran was discovered by Dr. Rashad Khalifa, an Egyptian born American biochemist, in the 1970's. Dr. Khalifa, started translating the Quran into English with the determination to find an explanation for the mysterious initials prefixing 29 Suras. He initiated an extensive research on these initials (for example: the Arabic letter "Qaaf" in Suras 42 and 50), after placing the Quranic text of the initialed Suras into a computer. His objective was to find a mathematical pattern which would explain the significance of the initials, although he had no idea where and what to look for. After several years of research, Dr. Khalifa published his first results in a book entitled MIRACLE OF THE QURAN, Significance of the Mysterious Alphabets (Islamic Productions), in 1973. It was in 1974 that Dr. Khalifa discovered that there was a common denominator in the initials and throughout the Quran - the number 19. Subsequently Dr. Khalifa published, THE COMPUTER SPEAKS: GOD'S MESSAGE TO THE WORLD (Renaissance Productions, 1981), QURAN: Visual Presentation of the Miracle (Islamic Productions, 1982); and the translation of the Quran in English (Islamic Productions, 1989). All these publications are good tools to verify the mathematical structure. (The books can be ordered from ICS, PO Box 43476, Tucson, Az 85733-3476).

SOME SIMPLE FACTS

1. The first verse (1:1), "Basmalah" consists of 19 Arabic letters.

2. Each of the four Arabic words of "Basmalah" are repeated in the Quran in multiples of 19 in numbered verses.
The first word..."Ism" (Name).....occurs...19 times
The second word.."Allah" (God)....occurs...2698 times (19x142).
The third word..."Al-Rahman" (Most Gracious)...57 times (19x3)
The fourth word.."Raheem" (Most Merciful)..114 times (19x6)

The above can be verified by the following:

A. In the Concordance of the Quran by Abdul Baqy on page 362 the word ISM is listed with 19 occurrences. The peculiar spelling of the word ISM as BISM is repeated in the Quran three times in verses 1:1, 27:30 & 11:41. (1+1+27+30+11+41 + number of occurrences 3 =114 or 19x6)

B. The count of the word ALLAH can best be verified by Dr. Rashad Khalifa's translation of the Quran which carries the cumulative total occurrences of ALLAH on each page. Abdul Baqy gets the same count when the numbered verse 1:1 is included in his count.

C. On page 307 on Abdul Baqy's concordance we find AL REHMAN to be 57 as total occurrences.

D. The word AL RAHEEM is listed on page 307 as occurring 95 times, while RAHEEM is listed on page 309 as occurring as 20 times. The total occurrence is 114 (95 -1 + 20 = 114). AL RAHEEM in verse 9:128 is not counted (Note: verses 9:128 & 129 were falsely injected into the Quran after the death of the prophet. The subject will be discussed in another topic).

3. The Quran consists of 114 suras, which is ...19 x 6

4. The total number of verses in the Quran is 6346, or ..19x334.

6346 is the total of 6234 numbered verses and 112 un-numbered verses (Basmalah)
Also 6 + 3 + 4 + 6 = 19

5. From the missing Basmalah in sura 9 to the extra Basmalah in sura 27, there are precisely 19 suras.

6. The first revelation (96:1-5) consists of 19 words and 76 letters (19 x 4)

7. First sura revealed (sura 96) consists of 19 verses and 304 Arabic letters (19 x 16).

8. The Quran mentions 30 different numbers.(Eg: 300 & 9 in verse 18:25). The sum of the 30 numbers is 162,146 or 19 x 8534.

9. The sum of all verse numbers where God "Allah" is mentioned is 118,123 or 19 x 6,217.

QURANIC INITIALS

There are 29 suras in the Quran with prefixed initials. All the initials are linked to the common denominator - 19.

"Q" (Qaaf) is initialed in suras 42 and 50. In both the suras,"Q" is repeated 57 times or 19 x 3.

"Nun" (Noon) is initialed in sura 68 and the name of the letter is spelled out as - "noon wow noon" - in the original text. The total count of "Nun" is 133 or 19 x 7.

"S" (Saad) is initialed in suras, 7, 19, 38, and the total occurrence in the three suras is 152 or 19 x 8.

"Y.S" (Ya Seen). These two letters are prefixed in Sura 36 and the total occurrence for both of them is 285 or 19 x 15.

"H.M" (Ha Mim). These letters prefix suras 40 through 46 and their total occurrence in the seven "H.M" initialed suras is 2147 or 19 x 113.

"`A.S.Q" ('Ayn Seen Qaf). These initials constitute Verse 2 of sura 42 and are repeated in the sura 209 or 19 x 11 times.

"A.L.M" (Alef Laam Mim). These most frequently used letters in the Arabic language are prefixed in six suras - 2, 3, 29, 30, 31 and 32 and the total occurrence of the three letters in each of the six suras in 9899 (19x521), 5662 (19x298), 1672 (19x88),1254 (19x66), 817 (19x43) and 570 (19x30) respectively.

All other Quranic initials, without exception, show similar patterns of being multiples of 19.

GEMATRICAL VALUE

When the Quran was revealed, 14 centuries ago, the numbers known today did not exist. Alphabets of Arabic, Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek languages were used as numerals with a value for each alphabet. For example, "alef" had a value of 1, "wow" had a value of 6, etc. The total sum of the 19 letters of "Basmalah" is 786, a number known to muslim masses all over the world by God's will. It is beyond the scope of this article to give the mathematical patterns in the Quran, taking into consideration the Gematrical Value of Arabic letters. Only one example will be given. The total sum of the 14 Arabic letters which participate in the formation of Quranic initials in 29 suras is 693.....693 + 29 = 722 or 19 x 19 x 2.

COMPLEX NUMBERS

The use of a computer becomes mandatory in certain complex aspects of the mathematical miracle of the Quran. For example, the sum of the number of verses in each of the 114 suras plus the sum of every single verse number in all the suras is equal to 339,644 or 19 x 17,876.

If we take the same number used in getting the total of 339,644 and put them all, side by side, from the first sura to the last sura, we obtain a 12,692 digit number. The number 12,692 is divisible by 19 (19 x 668). But more importantly, the entire 12,692 digit number is also a multiple of 19.

7 1234567 286 1234....285286 200 123......5 12345 6 123456.

OVER IT IS NINETEEN (74:30)

We now know the meaning of verse 30 of sura 74. God has chosen the number nineteen as his signature on his creation - the Glorious Quran. Anyone who cares to study and verify the mathematical structure of the Quran will know with certainty that such a book can never be authored by anyone, other than by God. When this mathematical structure is taken together with the literary excellence of the Quran, one can appreciate God's assertion in the following verses in the same sura 74, that this is one of the God's great miracles.

"Absolutely, (I swear) by the moon.
"And the night as it passes.
"And the morning as it shines.
"THIS IS ONE OF THE GREAT MIRACLES." (74:32-35)

REASON FOR THE MIRACLE OF QURAN

Verse 74:31 gives five reasons for the miracle of the Quran with number 19 as the common denominator.

1. To disturb the disbelievers.

2. To convince the Christians and the Jews (that this is divine scripture).

3. To strengthen the faith of the faithful.

4. To remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers; and

5. To expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; who will say, "What did God mean by this allegory?" (or "So What?").

NEW ERA IN RELIGION

With mankind having a verifiable proof, that the Quran, the Final Testament, is the unaltered word of God, we have entered a new era in religion. Verse 17:36 quoted above mandates, that we use our hearing , eyesight and brain to verify all information, including the miracle of the Quran by ourselves.

This new era also mandates that we seek proof for any religious law or practice dictated upon us. What makes the religion of Submission (Islam) so easy, is the proof, we now have, that the Quran is the unaltered and complete word of God. As submitters (Muslims) to God, we have to accept God's assertion in the Quran; that the Quran is complete, fully detailed and the only source of religious law.

That is proof?

[The Muslim Agorist]

That is proof?

Well, I'd be a little careful of submission.org... Rashad Kalifa went a little crazy, in my opinion. I prefer the mathematical works Harun Yahya. Non the less, regardless of the scholar, there is at least concensus that mathematical precision exists which is far too complicated to have been inserted by Muhammad, especially considering he was illiterate, and didn't know how to spell what he was reciting.

[The Muslim Agorist]

I don't think there is such a think as perfect prose....but I have heard this before.

Regarding the prefection of the prose, there are a number of factors. First, the meter, rhyme, meaning. There is a rhythm to arabic poetry which is very difficult to emulate. Poetry was a prevailing form or performance art in pre Islamic arabia, and to convey meaning while maintaining this rhythm was very difficult. To use a modern equivalent, imagin if you went to a poetry slam where poets competed. All of the artists recited poems in typical spoken word rhthyms, with meter changes, rhyme changes, and often misprounounciations to fit the thing together... and also recited from memory. Then a mand stands up who everyone knows is illiterate, and has never been known for his poetry, then he recites a poem, in real time, not from memory, that was in the queens english (not his dialect) all in perfect iambic pentameter.

Numerous poets in that time, and since have tried to emulate this, by have been unable to withour resulting to using obscure words which do not convey the correct meaning, manipulated grammar, or abandoning the structure slightly.

[ChristianAnarchist]

If your God is proven to exist, I'd consider going to hell a blessing.

You may be blessed, my son...

[Taors]

Damn judgments.

[ChristianAnarchist]

Judgements are a part of everyday living...

[Taors]

And are usually kept to yourself. That's the difference between regular people and Christians.

[ChristianAnarchist]

Why is it only you get to make judgements??

[Taors]

I am king.

[theghostofbj]

No lie.

[Lindsey]

Wow. 

[ChristianAnarchist]

Kings tend to "lose" their heads...

[theghostofbj]

Are you threatening me?