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Author Topic: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...  (Read 543183 times)

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Rillion

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1845 on: April 21, 2007, 12:32:08 PM »

I'm not sure why homosexuality is any sillier than heterosexuality.  If you're like me and not concerned with having kids, it's probably actually a lot more practical.  Too bad it's not a switch most of us can flip at will. 
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dharveymi

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1846 on: April 21, 2007, 12:49:38 PM »

I hope you're not operating under the bizarre belief that something which happened in the past can't be studied scientifically-- are you throwing geology and archeology out as well?

Note the word bizarre.

Let's take them one at a time.  Let's assume some geologist makes a claim about the past.  He wasn't there.  He can't go back and check his hypothesis.  The best he can do is suggest that according to the way the world works now, his hypothesis is true.  What if things have changed?
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Besides, speciation has  been observed-- many times.
Ok, I'll get my seeds, set up my lab the way he had his.  Grow my plants, and should expect to find the same results.  No, these are events in the past.  These are not accounts of science, they are at best scientific reporting.
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abiogenesis and doesn't fall under the domain of evolution anyway. 
I'll bite, so what does it fall under, a car I hope.  You know this is the problem that Christians have with evolution and what most people think of when you say evolution.  Come on!

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Besides the semantic difference we have for the word faith, I have admitted as much.  I claim I have no proof for the existence of God.  I do believe that a naturalistic philosophy has no inherent justifiable basis, by definition.
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You can claim to believe that, but you've provided no argument for it whatsoever-- for that matter, you haven't provided an argument for why anything  has an "inherent justifiable basis," whatever that means. 
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I'm sure your are referring to the latter statement, and this is what we've been arguing about for days.  You just don't like my arguments.  Sorry.

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What latter statement?
  Latter- the last, the one following the others.  I question how you know what you know.  This is what we disagree on.  You reject the collected knowledge of the past, in favor of what can be empirically proved.  I do not.

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I do believe in what the Bible says, but you certainly must understand the concept of "context".  Taken out of context, I have admitted that there are many disturbing things in the bible, as there are probably such disturbing statements in any anthology.
[[

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Wow, if you're shooting for the Top 10 Most Repeated Ridiculous Statements from Christians, you're doing pretty well.  I've heard this one hundreds of times-- if there's something in the Bible that appears to be disturbing, it must be taken out of context!  Any time God is described as slaughter mass numbers of people or ordering them to be slaughtered?  Out of context.  Any time God orders somebody to kill their child for him?  Out of context.  Any time God hands down sadistic punishments for minor infractions?  Out of context.  Any time Jesus yells at someone or threatens them with hellfire?  Out of context.  Very convenient, that. 
Convenient yes, but true.  I would be happy to take each of these, but of course you have heard it all before, so what's the point?
Note the phrase Top 10 Most Repeated Ridiculous Statements.
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Rillion

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1847 on: April 21, 2007, 01:10:53 PM »

Okay, dharveymi, you're being pretty wacky now so this is probably my last post to you on this subject.  We can't go on forever, and I'm perceiving diminishing returns. 

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Let's assume some geologist makes a claim about the past.  He wasn't there.  He can't go back and check his hypothesis.  The best he can do is suggest that according to the way the world works now, his hypothesis is true.  What if things have changed?

Please, for your own sake, go do some research into how scientific research that studies the past is performed. The scientific method involves making observations, forming hypotheses based on those observations, and testing them.  The testing does not have to be about what happens in the future-- it can be about what the scientist expects to find.  For example, if I observe that all land mammals have fingers/toes, and I suspect that ocean mammals have evolved from them, then it is evidence in support of my theory to find that whales, dolphins etc. have fingers/toes inside their flippers.  Likewise, a geologist or archaeological anthropologist can predict that he will find a certain type of matter (bones, pottery, whatever he's looking for) on a certain dig site, and finding it there will lend support to his theory. 

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Ok, I'll get my seeds, set up my lab the way he had his.  Grow my plants, and should expect to find the same results.  No, these are events in the past.  These are not accounts of science, they are at best scientific reporting.

This doesn't even make sense, but I'm going to give you-- again-- a link to a list of speciation events that have been observed.  Please, read it this time:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html

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abiogenesis and doesn't fall under the domain of evolution anyway. 
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I'll bite, so what does it fall under, a car I hope.  You know this is the problem that Christians have with evolution and what most people think of when you say evolution.  Come on!

Again, WTF?  It's simply a fact that the origin of life is not part of evolutionary theory.  Most people who know what evolution IS know that.  If Christians have a problem with evolution because they confuse it with abiogenesis, then they're ignorant and should educate themselves. 

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I question how you know what you know.  This is what we disagree on.

How I know what I know?  Observation, reasoning, experience-- the same way everybody knows what they know. 

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You reject the collected knowledge of the past, in favor of what can be empirically proved.  I do not.

Yes, you've made it abundantly clear that you don't care much at all about what can be demonstrated empirically.  I'm not sure how that is supposed to constitute an argument against naturalist philosophy, however.   

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Wow, if you're shooting for the Top 10 Most Repeated Ridiculous Statements from Christians, you're doing pretty well.  I've heard this one hundreds of times-- if there's something in the Bible that appears to be disturbing, it must be taken out of context!  Any time God is described as slaughter mass numbers of people or ordering them to be slaughtered?  Out of context.  Any time God orders somebody to kill their child for him?  Out of context.  Any time God hands down sadistic punishments for minor infractions?  Out of context.  Any time Jesus yells at someone or threatens them with hellfire?  Out of context.  Very convenient, that. 

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Convenient yes, but true.

Like I said, you might as well abandon the Bible altogether and just read God's mind....that's what you're doing already. 
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ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1848 on: April 21, 2007, 02:32:24 PM »

"Silliness" is an opinion, and to be quite frank, given Gene's opinion on a good many things, I'm not really inclined to take him seriously.

Go back and read the post.  The term "silliness" was taken from a quote.  I merely reversed and used it in an example (in this case, homosexuality)...

(But then who expects anyone here to actually READ the post they are criticizing??

ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1849 on: April 21, 2007, 02:33:28 PM »

Okay, dharveymi, you're being pretty wacky now

Okay, Rillion, you're being pretty wacky now...

ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1850 on: April 21, 2007, 02:35:27 PM »

I'm not sure why homosexuality is any sillier than heterosexuality.  If you're like me and not concerned with having kids, it's probably actually a lot more practical.  Too bad it's not a switch most of us can flip at will. 

It's not "silly" because it propigates the species.  If "homosexuality" were really genetic, it would have been "naturally selected" into extinction long ago...

theghostofbj

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1851 on: April 21, 2007, 02:38:33 PM »

Gene's hot. I want to touch him in his pants.
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Lindsey

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1852 on: April 21, 2007, 02:47:41 PM »

So we should definitely round up everyone with homosexual tendencies, and put them in camps, right? 
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Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.
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theghostofbj

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1853 on: April 21, 2007, 02:48:30 PM »

We have to protect The Children.
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Lindsey

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1854 on: April 21, 2007, 02:50:53 PM »

And once we get that perversion out of the general populous, procreation can continue as intended. 
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Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.
         -George W. Bush

theghostofbj

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1855 on: April 21, 2007, 02:52:08 PM »

I've heard that Jesus was a homosexual. Thoughts?
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Taors

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1856 on: April 21, 2007, 02:53:20 PM »

I've heard that Jesus was a homosexual. Thoughts?

Martin Scorsese had a lot to say about that.
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theghostofbj

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1857 on: April 21, 2007, 02:54:30 PM »

That movie was hott.
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markuzick

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1858 on: April 21, 2007, 04:47:45 PM »

If God created Man, then in order to be able to fulfill their purpose in living, men must use the minds that God gave them to achieve self mastery and mastery over Man's dominion. Blind adherence to dogmatic religious doctrine and its concomitant rejection of reason is an attempt to cheat one's way into the unearned favor of God. No person is totally evil, but to the extent that one rejects God's gift in favor of dogma, he has spit in God's eye and damned himself to hell on earth.

An atheist can substitute the words "existence" or "nature" into the above statement, for a dogmatic religious doctrine does not require a God and so the statement will still be true, for correct morality depends only on Man's nature, not on Man's origin.

Maria Montessori was a devout Christian. While she didn't use the exact same words, Her philosophy and everything that she advocated was based on an implicit recognition of the above:

http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/montessori/method/method.html


"But if the administrative departments are not carried on in a way which would seem suitable to a nation's greatness; if corruption too easily finds a place; it is the result of having extinguished the true greatness of man in the mind of the employee, and of having restricted his vision to those petty, immediate facts, which he has come to look upon as prizes and punishments. The country stands, because the rectitude of the greater number of its employees is such that they resist the corruption of the prizes and punishments, and follow an irresistible current of honesty. Even as life in the social environment triumphs against every cause of poverty and death, and proceeds to new conquests, so the instinct of liberty conquers all obstacles, going from victory to victory.

It is this personal and yet universal force of life, a force often latent within the soul, that sends the world forward.


But he who accomplishes a truly human work, he who does something really great and victorious, is never spurred to his task by those trifling attractions called by the name of "prizes," nor by the fear of those petty ills which we call "punishments." If in a war a great army of giants should fight with no inspiration beyond the desire to win promotion, epaulets, or medals, or through fear of [Page 24]  being shot, if these men were to oppose a handful of pygmies who were inflamed by love of country, the victory would go to the latter. When real heroism has died within an army, prizes and punishments cannot do more than finish the work of deterioration, bringing in corruption and cowardice.

All human victories, all human progress, stand upon the inner force.

Thus a young student may become a great doctor if he is spurred to his study by an interest which makes medicine his real vocation. But if he works in the hope of an inheritance, or of making a desirable marriage, or if indeed he is inspired by any material advantage, he will never become a true master or a great doctor, and the world will never make one step forward because of his work. He to whom such stimuli are necessary, had far better never become a physician. Everyone has a special tendency, a special vocation, modest, perhaps, but certainly useful. The system of prizes may turn an individual aside from this vocation, may make him choose a false road, for him a vain one, and forced to follow it, the natural activity of a human being may be warped, lessened, even annihilated.

We repeat always that the world progresses and that we must urge men forward to obtain progress. But progress comes from the new things that are born, and these, not being foreseen, are not rewarded with prizes: rather, they often carry the leader to martyrdom. God forbid that poems should ever be born of the desire to be crowned in the Capitol! Such a vision need only come into the heart of the poet and the muse will vanish. The poem must spring from the soul of the poet, when he thinks neither of himself nor of the prize. And if he does win [Page 25]  the laurel, he will feel the vanity of such a prize. The true reward lies in the revelation through the poem of his own triumphant inner force.

There does exist, however, an external prize for man; when, for example, the orator sees the faces of his listeners change with the emotions he has awakened, he experiences something so great that it can only be likened to the intense joy with which one discovers that he is loved. Our joy is to touch, and conquer souls, and this is the one prize which can bring us a true compensation.

Sometimes there is given to us a moment when we fancy ourselves to be among the great ones of the world. These are moments of happiness given to man that he may continue his existence in peace. It may be through love attained or because of the gift of a son, through a glorious discovery or the publication of a book; in some such moment we feel that there exists no man who is above us. If, in such a moment, someone vested with authority comes forward to offer us a medal or a prize, he is the important destroyer of our real reward–"And who are you?" our vanished illusion shall cry, "Who are you that recalls me to the fact that I am not the first among men? Who stands so far above me that he may give me a prize?" The prize of such a man in such a moment can only be Divine.

As for punishments, the soul of the normal man grows perfect through expanding, and punishment as commonly understood is always a form of repression. It may bring results with those inferior natures who grow in evil, but these are very few, and social progress is not affected by them. The penal code threatens us with punishment if we are dishonest within the limits indicated by the laws. But we are not honest through fear of the laws; if we [Page 26]  do not rob, if we do not kill, it is because we love peace, because the natural trend of our lives leads us forward, leading us ever farther and more definitely away from the peril of low and evil acts.

Without going into the ethical or metaphysical aspects of the question, we may safely affirm that the delinquent before he transgresses the law, has, if he knows of the existence of a punishment, felt the threatening weight of the criminal code upon him. He has defied it, or he has been lured into the crime, deluding himself with the idea that he would be able to avoid the punishment of the law. But there has occurred within his mind, a struggle between the crime and the punishment. Whether it be efficacious in hindering crime or not, this penal code is undoubtedly made for a very limited class of individuals; namely, criminals. The enormous majority of citizens are honest without any regard whatever to the threats of the law.

The real punishment of normal man is the loss of the consciousness of that individual power and greatness which are the sources of his inner life. Such a punishment often falls upon men in the fullness of success. A man whom we would consider crowned by happiness and fortune may be suffering from this form of punishment. Far too often man does not see the real punishment which threatens him."
« Last Edit: April 21, 2007, 05:18:22 PM by markuzick »
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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1859 on: April 21, 2007, 05:13:12 PM »

So we should definitely round up everyone with homosexual tendencies, and put them in camps, right? 

Is this your idea??  I haven't heard anyone else spout such nonsense...
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