Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...

[dharveymi]

Question, yes!

[ChristianAnarchist]

From dictionary.com...

au·thor·i·ty      /əˈθɔrɪti, əˈθɒr-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uh-thawr-i-tee, uh-thor-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -ties.
1.   the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.
2.   a power or right delegated or given; authorization: Who has the authority to grant permission?
3.   a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.
4.   Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government: They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.
5.   an accepted source of information, advice, etc.
6.   a quotation or citation from such a source.
7.   an expert on a subject: He is an authority on baseball.
8.   persuasive force; conviction: She spoke with authority.
9.   a statute, court rule, or judicial decision that establishes a rule or principle of law; a ruling.
10.   right to respect or acceptance of one's word, command, thought, etc.; commanding influence: the authority of a parent; the authority of a great writer.
11.   mastery in execution or performance, as of a work of art or literature or a piece of music.
12.   a warrant for action; justification.
13.   testimony; witness.

What is not determined in the above is FROM WHENCE the "vesting" comes for supposed authority...

[markuzick]

From dictionary.com...

au·thor·i·ty      /əˈθɔrɪti, əˈθɒr-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uh-thawr-i-tee, uh-thor-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -ties.
1.   the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.
2.   a power or right delegated or given; authorization: Who has the authority to grant permission?
3.   a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.
4.   Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government: They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.
5.   an accepted source of information, advice, etc.
6.   a quotation or citation from such a source.
7.   an expert on a subject: He is an authority on baseball.
8.   persuasive force; conviction: She spoke with authority.
9.   a statute, court rule, or judicial decision that establishes a rule or principle of law; a ruling.
10.   right to respect or acceptance of one's word, command, thought, etc.; commanding influence: the authority of a parent; the authority of a great writer.
11.   mastery in execution or performance, as of a work of art or literature or a piece of music.
12.   a warrant for action; justification.
13.   testimony; witness.

What is not determined in the above is FROM WHENCE the "vesting" comes for supposed authority...

It certainly does! It says that it's the right to control, command or determine. For those of us who believe in natural rights, this right comes from the individual who gives his voluntary consent to abide by the rules of his chosen authority. That's where government by the consent of the governed gets its authority, and that can only come from anarchy, which is a society that creates spontaneous order through a system of voluntary governments, competing in the marketplace as legitimate businesses and/or organizations.

[ReverendRyan]

THIS THREAD MUST DIE

GIVE UP THE MENTAL MASTURBATION

[dharveymi]

There is a simple way to end this thread.  Accept the inevitable, government will fail, but Christianity (insert your religion) will take it's place.  You can convince people that the government is illegitimate, but God alone is immortal.

(He says with a smirk)

[theghostofbj]

"Sorry, you can't repeat a karma action without waiting 1 hours. "

Shit.

[dharveymi]

I know you were about to applaud my last post.  Thanks.

[ChristianAnarchist]

From dictionary.com...

au·thor·i·ty      /əˈθɔrɪti, əˈθɒr-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uh-thawr-i-tee, uh-thor-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -ties.
1.   the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.
2.   a power or right delegated or given; authorization: Who has the authority to grant permission?
3.   a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.
4.   Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government: They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.
5.   an accepted source of information, advice, etc.
6.   a quotation or citation from such a source.
7.   an expert on a subject: He is an authority on baseball.
8.   persuasive force; conviction: She spoke with authority.
9.   a statute, court rule, or judicial decision that establishes a rule or principle of law; a ruling.
10.   right to respect or acceptance of one's word, command, thought, etc.; commanding influence: the authority of a parent; the authority of a great writer.
11.   mastery in execution or performance, as of a work of art or literature or a piece of music.
12.   a warrant for action; justification.
13.   testimony; witness.

What is not determined in the above is FROM WHENCE the "vesting" comes for supposed authority...

It certainly does! It says that it's the right to control, command or determine. For those of us who believe in natural rights, this right comes from the individual who gives his voluntary consent to abide by the rules of his chosen authority. That's where government by the consent of the governed gets its authority, and that can only come from anarchy, which is a society that creates spontaneous order through a system of voluntary governments, competing in the marketplace as legitimate businesses and/or organizations.

You just made my point, thanks.  The "right" is not something that can be shown to be "vested" from any source... (oh right, "natural rights" - show them to me)...

[markuzick]

From dictionary.com...

au·thor·i·ty      /əˈθɔrɪti, əˈθɒr-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uh-thawr-i-tee, uh-thor-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -ties.
1.   the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.
2.   a power or right delegated or given; authorization: Who has the authority to grant permission?
3.   a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.
4.   Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government: They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.
5.   an accepted source of information, advice, etc.
6.   a quotation or citation from such a source.
7.   an expert on a subject: He is an authority on baseball.
8.   persuasive force; conviction: She spoke with authority.
9.   a statute, court rule, or judicial decision that establishes a rule or principle of law; a ruling.
10.   right to respect or acceptance of one's word, command, thought, etc.; commanding influence: the authority of a parent; the authority of a great writer.
11.   mastery in execution or performance, as of a work of art or literature or a piece of music.
12.   a warrant for action; justification.
13.   testimony; witness.

What is not determined in the above is FROM WHENCE the "vesting" comes for supposed authority...

It certainly does! It says that it's the right to control, command, or determine. For those of us who believe in natural rights, this right comes from the individual who gives his voluntary consent to abide by the rules of his chosen authority. That's where government by the consent of the governed gets its authority, and that can only come from anarchy, which is a society that creates spontaneous order through a system of voluntary governments, competing in the marketplace as legitimate businesses and/or organizations.

You just made my point, thanks.  The "right" is not something that can be shown to be "vested" from any source... (oh right, "natural rights" - show them to me)...

Rights are moral entitlements. Morality is a code of values that are held by every person. They are implicit in how they behave, whether or not they are consciously aware of the existence of these values, what they are, where they acquired them or whether they conflict. That's why there are so many people who are morally and emotionally a mess.

For some people, the source of their moral code of values is God, and so they see the right to  control, command, or determine as vested by God upon either the individual believer a holy man, a church, or a King.

For some people, the source of their moral code of values is in their love of power, and so they see  authority as vested by the projection of brute force.

For some people, the source of their moral code of values is the will of the people, and so they see  authority as vested by democracy upon the elected rulers.

For some people, the source of their moral code of values is the collective will of their ethnic group or race, and so they see authority as vested by collective will upon their leader.

For the people who believe in natural rights, the source of their moral code of values comes from their observation of Man's nature. To them, values are the things which men must seek to gain or keep in order to sustain life, overcome adversity, and to flourish. They are instinctively rewarded with relief, satisfaction, pleasure and happiness though the successful acquisition of these values, but it is up to their intelligence, judgement and wisdom, though the exercise of their faculty of reason and creativity (The mind) that permits this acquisition. The mind can only operate successfully in an environment of liberty, free from intimidation, violence and coercion. Voluntary cooperation, within a competitive environment allows people to attain their values. Coercion and violence stunt and destroy life and all its values. Their morality requires productive work guided by rationality and creativity( the mind), within a societal framework of voluntary cooperation and trade. They see authority as vested by natural morality upon the individual, or self ownership, which is the right to control, command, or determination over one's own self.

[dharveymi]

[For some people, the source of their moral code of values is God, and so they see the right to  control, command, or determine as vested by God upon either the individual believer a holy man, a church, or a King.

For the people who believe in natural rights, the source of their moral code of values comes from their observation of Man's nature.

God has been used by many to sustain their greed, ambition, etc.  This does not mean that this justification is inherent in a belief in God.  It could be the result of faulty thinking.

What observations of man's nature have lead to a particular moral code?  I still think, a careful observation of man's nature would lead to a moral code similar to a Machiavellian system in which men would be ruled by a ruthless but savvy ruler.

[ChristianAnarchist]

Rights are moral entitlements. Morality is a code of values that are held by every person. They are implicit in how they behave, whether or not they are consciously aware of the existence of these values, what they are, where they acquired them or whether they conflict. That's why there are so many people who are morally and emotionally a mess.

So says you and X number of people who hold a similar "viewpoint".  So you make my point again.  No SOURCE of AUTHORITY exists that has a concrete definable basis (other than God).  "Entitlements", "values", "behave", "acquired"...  Huh??

[markuzick]

[For some people, the source of their moral code of values is God, and so they see the right to  control, command, or determine as vested by God upon either the individual believer a holy man, a church, or a King.

For the people who believe in natural rights, the source of their moral code of values comes from their observation of Man's nature.

God has been used by many to sustain their greed, ambition, etc.  This does not mean that this justification is inherent in a belief in God.  It could be the result of faulty thinking.

I guess you didn't notice, but one of the possibilities that I mentioned in the first sentence that you quoted was that they see authority as vested by God upon the individual. Where God vests his authority all depends upon which set of attributes that you vest upon your God. I.e., it depends upon your particular religion.

What observations of man's nature have lead to a particular moral code?  I still think, a careful observation of man's nature would lead to a moral code similar to a Machiavellian system in which men would be ruled by a ruthless but savvy ruler.

This would imply that you must think that the way to achieve man's survival and happiness is to rule men through aggression. Tell me why you think that a moral system that entitles all innocent men to  liberty and justice is inimical to a successful and happy life.

[markuzick]

Rights are moral entitlements. Morality is a code of values that are held by every person. They are implicit in how they behave, whether or not they are consciously aware of the existence of these values, what they are, where they acquired them or whether they conflict. That's why there are so many people who are morally and emotionally a mess.

So says you and X number of people who hold a similar "viewpoint".  So you make my point again.  No SOURCE of AUTHORITY exists that has a concrete definable basis (other than God).  "Entitlements", "values", "behave", "acquired"...  Huh??

Just as your morality comes from a religion that makes God its source and your morality is the source  of your authority over yourself, so my morality comes from the science of human nature and my morality is the source of my authority over myself.

BTW: What is the source of your God's authority? If you say that God is his own source, then why couldn't you say that if there is no God, then that the individual is his own source of authority?

[ChristianAnarchist]

Rights are moral entitlements. Morality is a code of values that are held by every person. They are implicit in how they behave, whether or not they are consciously aware of the existence of these values, what they are, where they acquired them or whether they conflict. That's why there are so many people who are morally and emotionally a mess.

So says you and X number of people who hold a similar "viewpoint".  So you make my point again.  No SOURCE of AUTHORITY exists that has a concrete definable basis (other than God).  "Entitlements", "values", "behave", "acquired"...  Huh??

Just as your morality comes from a religion that makes God its source and your morality is the source  of your authority over yourself, so my morality comes from the science of human nature and my morality is the source of my authority over myself.

BTW: What is the source of your God's authority?

You confuse the morality that I believe in with "God's morality".  I've never claimed that my morality is God's morality.  I would like for my morality to be in agreement with God's, but I do not have perfect insight into exactly what God's morality is.  I have "witnesses" from the past who claimed to have some insight and I have my own spirit which I believe helps me to discern what God's morality is, but I have never claimed to have that perfect insight (I wish I did).

My point is (again) that our Creator's moral code IS PERFECT.  As Creator, He is the only one who has that right.  He is also the only one with a claim to authority over His created.  Man has no authority over me unless he can show a "delegation" of that authority from God.  So far, I've never seen such a delegation, so I accept no man's authority over me.  So for you to say that I derive my morality from a "religion" is not accurate.  My morality is my morality.  Your morality is your morality.  I try to achieve a harmony with my morality and whatever God's morality is.  You get your morality from I don't know where...

[theCelestrian]

I know this conversation hasn't involved me, but I have a few questions on this last post:

I've never claimed that my morality is God's morality.

Alright, I have no problem with this, but I want to keep this statement in mind.

I would like for my morality to be in agreement with God's, but I do not have perfect insight into exactly what God's morality is.

Same thing, no problem so far.

My point is (again) that our Creator's moral code IS PERFECT.

I guess here is where I stumble a bit.  You've already conceded that:

• The existence of God cannot be proven
• Your Morality is not God's morality
• You do not have perfect insight into what God's morality is

So I guess my question is that will all of these things in mind, how can you make the claim of fact that God's moral code "is perfect" when we cannot even come to a conclusion on his/her/its existence, let alone the morality this God may or may not have?  This just doesn't seem to be a consistent position to me.

Before you get too "uppity"... I know there's the element of faith; either you believe in God and therefore accept his/her/its morality as the "de-facto perfect morality" (after all, if true then he/she/it created the Universe) [EDIT:]even though we don't know what that morality is [/edit] or you don't.  I also know that herein lies the real "line in the sand" that ultimately will prevent me from convincing you of my worldview and vice versa.  This is something that I'm actually very okay with, as I would rather have more liberty-minded people like you who disagrees with me on God's existence than a bunch of agnostics and atheists who feel that the initiation of aggressive coercive force for social, political or ecnomic gain is acceptable.

I'm just not sure if I agree with your "point."

---------------------------------------------------------------
(2nd Edit:) Oh, and I think it should be fair that I also answer this question since I jumped in:

You get your morality from I don't know where...

I get my "morality" ultimately from "The Golden Rule" - I treat others the way I want to be treated, but I have also mentioned before in the discussion of "natural rights" that my concepts of what a "right" is and is not is very, very different than what Markuzick and others on this BBS believe it is.  I want to be as free as possible, so therefore I will do everything I can to ensure that you remain as free as possible (within the confines of my abilities and what I deem "reasonable").  As I said earlier in this thread, I don't need God, or a Government to delegate this "morality" to me.