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Author Topic: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...  (Read 541750 times)

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markuzick

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1500 on: March 13, 2007, 09:23:31 PM »

This thread is this thread.  Those who feel it's too long merely need to not read it or post in it.  The owners of this bbs have seen fit to make this forum a "free speach" forum and as such, none of you have any power to censor what is posted here.  Lord knows there's plenty of garbage here that I find "offensive" and ignorant.  I could spend my time posting to those threads about how offensive or stupid they are, but that would be a waste of my time and certainly not my business since the bbs "gods" have deemed that all posts are valid.  It would be nice (although I know better than to expect) that those who find this thread offensive would just leave it alone, but I know that will not happen.

So I continue to ignore anyone who posts just to be offensive or abusive and respond whenever and however I feel. 

Peace ya'all...

You're 100% right on this.
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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

lordmetroid

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1501 on: March 13, 2007, 09:31:56 PM »

Wouldn't want it in any other way...
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theCelestrian

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1502 on: March 13, 2007, 10:10:25 PM »

Quote
Ah, but my "Christianity" is an integral part of my "anarchy".  In the past I stated on air that I wanted help in choosing a name for a "Christian Anarchist" church...

All right, and again there's nothing wrong with this.  For the purposes of this discussion, my "anarchy" doesn't require religion/faith to make it work.  So then the only place to go from here would be "whose anarchy is more sensible," which is something I think either of us would have a hard time to "prove."  Sounds a bit "relativistic," but that's the entire nature of morality, which is "fork in the road" where our discussion has lead to.
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ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1503 on: March 13, 2007, 11:38:40 PM »

And the reason that my "anarchy" requires a moral standard (Christianity) and the reason that I tie the two together is that anarchy alone left to men in general would, I believe, be a bit of a mess (still better than "gov" though).  Anarchists who have a moral basis in Christianity would (I would hope) use love and mercy along with a total distain for "authority" of men for a truly utopian society. 

It's my dream...

dharveymi

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1504 on: April 04, 2007, 10:41:51 AM »

Forgive me for not reading the entire thread, but I agree entirely with C.A.  What is the basis for atheist's morality?  Is it simply a Machiavellian motivation?  (I won't kill you and take all your things, because it serves my purpose at this time.)  Or, is there a deeper reason for being moral?
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Rillion

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1505 on: April 04, 2007, 11:05:37 AM »

Forgive me for not reading the entire thread, but I agree entirely with C.A.  What is the basis for atheist's morality?  Is it simply a Machiavellian motivation?  (I won't kill you and take all your things, because it serves my purpose at this time.)  Or, is there a deeper reason for being moral?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma
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dharveymi

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1506 on: April 04, 2007, 11:31:08 AM »

Forgive me for not reading the entire thread, but I agree entirely with C.A.  What is the basis for atheist's morality?  Is it simply a Machiavellian motivation?  (I won't kill you and take all your things, because it serves my purpose at this time.)  Or, is there a deeper reason for being moral?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma

So...  What is the basis for atheistic morality?  How do you know what is "good"?
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Rillion

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1507 on: April 04, 2007, 11:47:31 AM »

Forgive me for not reading the entire thread, but I agree entirely with C.A.  What is the basis for atheist's morality?  Is it simply a Machiavellian motivation?  (I won't kill you and take all your things, because it serves my purpose at this time.)  Or, is there a deeper reason for being moral?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma

So...  What is the basis for atheistic morality?  How do you know what is "good"?

To summarize Euthyphro:  How do theists know what is good?  All they have is a book written by other people who presume to speak for God.  But then they are confronted by the following two problems:

1.  Is the good determined by God, or does God recognize what is good?
2.  Why should we trust the writers of sacred texts to be speaking for God, and why doesn't God simply speak for himself?

To answer the first:  If the former, then the good is arbirtary.  If the latter, then the good is objective and it doesn't matter if we believe in God or not.
To answer the second: Anybody can write down something and claim that it comes from God, but if they are wrong then it should be discarded, and if they are right then you must refer to the first objection.

To answer your main question:  How do atheists know what is good?  Many different ways.  There is no single atheistic moral standard, because all atheism means is not believing in gods.  So available to atheists are every moral standard which are not theistic, which are many.  To mention a few:

Ethical egoism
Hedonism
Existentialism
Utilitarianism
Natural realism
Objectivism
Moral relativisim
Cultural relativism
etc.

Some models are consequentialist (emphasize the consequences of an act) whereas others are more deontological (derived from rules).   If you believe that ethics stem from empathy and emotions, you're more likely to be a Humean, whereas if you believe that ethical rules should be derived from an imperative which all people should be able to follow in every situation, you're more likely to be a Kantian.  If you believe that the good of the many is to be sought then you're a utilitarian (John Stuart Mill) whereas if you believe that the ultimate moral society could be derived from behind a veil of ignorance from which every individual should be able to determine the rules without knowing what their role in society would turn out to be, then you're a Rawlsian (John Rawls).  If you're a cultural relativist, then you believe that the good is entirely determined by culture and cannot be judged by outsiders.   If you're an individual moral relativist, then you believe that the good is entirely determined by individuals.  If you're a hedonist, then you believe that the good is determined by what is pleasurable.

In essence, you're asking me to summarize the entirety of moral philosophy.  That's not something I care to do-- all I can really do is tell you to check out a book on the subject and find out for yourself.  It's not something that can be fully discussed on an internet forum, but I've tried to give you an idea of the scope of possibilities. 
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Bill Brasky

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1508 on: April 04, 2007, 01:38:08 PM »

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cerpntaxt

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1509 on: April 04, 2007, 04:13:24 PM »

Rillion's rocking my socks again
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lordmetroid

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1510 on: April 04, 2007, 04:31:51 PM »

Somethings are just inherented by the human species.
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ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1511 on: April 04, 2007, 07:29:25 PM »

Somethings are just inherented by the human species.

Is this to say you believe morailty to be genetic?

theCelestrian

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1512 on: April 04, 2007, 07:50:07 PM »

Quote
Is this to say you believe morailty to be genetic?

I know this wasn't directed at my, but I'll enter my 2c on this:

I would say that in a way, yes, morality (in all its flavors) in the broadest sense is "genetic" in a very real way.  This is because morality is a result of having a mind capable of reasoning and understanding how one's actions and behaviors affect other rational beings and the environment around them.  That requires a brain with enough complexity in order to happen, which is a direct result of our genes, Gene. ;)

Plants, and Animals are amoral; They have no morality, good or bad.  Their actions are driven soley on instinct.  There are some animals that certaintly might have the conditions necessary to formulate a morality (dolphins, elephants, higher primates), but they do not have the means to communicate this morality to us if it exists.

Therefore, if I don't have a brain, then I can't formulate a morality: either my own "Brandenism" or by adopting one that has been communicated to me by others.  In the broadest, observable and measurable reality of our physical universe, I would make the assertion that morality is merely the consequence of having a brain.

As I said somewhere else:  Our perceptions and existence within our reality is defined through our physicality.

(edit: removed "I" from a sentance for grammtical correctness.)
« Last Edit: April 04, 2007, 08:03:31 PM by theCelestrian »
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lordmetroid

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1513 on: April 04, 2007, 07:58:51 PM »

What theCelestrian said more or less. Basic morality comes from genetics and the nature of our species living in social groups which demands certain traits in order to function. Other more advanced ethics comes from reasoning, philosophying and communication inbetween people learning by each other and come to a consensus.
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ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1514 on: April 04, 2007, 09:08:21 PM »

Sounds really good (and intellectual), now show in the genome code where this lies...
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