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Author Topic: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...  (Read 471253 times)

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cerpntaxt

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1455 on: March 10, 2007, 10:37:19 PM »

You should call in about that. Mark hasn't talked about evolution in a while.
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rabidfurby

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1456 on: March 10, 2007, 11:13:06 PM »

You should call in about that. Mark hasn't talked about evolution in a while.

Don't encourage him. I just got un-pissed off from the last time Mark made his complete and utter lack of understanding of evolution and his complete and utter lack of knowledge about how completely and utterly he lacks knowledge known.
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markuzick

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1457 on: March 10, 2007, 11:36:43 PM »

One again, I'm not talking about MY God.  I'm talking of any real Creator that may be out there.  His existance is not dependant on my perception of Him however imperfect that may be.  He (if He exists) cannot be called a "concept" as He either is or He is not.  My belief, however, is that He has X Y or Z attributes.  My belief is not going to be perfect, but I try to understand how He would be based on my perceptions of what has happened, what is happening, and what my instincts tell me. 

Of course, if there is a God, then he would, by definition, exist. My point is that, given certain descriptions of God, it can be logically proven that he is a concept that does not, in reality, exist. If you believe in a kind of God that is logically plausible, I still have seen no evidence to believe that he  exists. I also don't see how speculation about the existence of a plausible God differs fundamentally from the speculation that a superior alien being engineered the human race.

Descriptions of God are imperfect and of course cannot be proven to be either true or false.  The only "hard evidence" I can find of His existance is the creation itself.  I marvel at the perfection and complication.  It screams for an intelligent designer. 

There is a very close resemblence to a God or a superior alien race designing us.  That only leads to speculation of who created them and we are back to square one...


Are you saying that God is essentially a superior alien that operates within the realm of what is logically possible and does not perform actual miracles?
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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1458 on: March 11, 2007, 12:21:03 AM »

No, I'm merely admitting that a superior alien race that had the ability to engineer us would be a similar speculation as to our existance.  An alien race differs in that someone would have had to engineer them.  The idea of a God/Creator who is eternal eliminates that problem but then creates a new problem in trying to understand what "eternal" means...

markuzick

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1459 on: March 11, 2007, 01:47:40 AM »

No, I'm merely admitting that a superior alien race that had the ability to engineer us would be a similar speculation as to our existance.  An alien race differs in that someone would have had to engineer them.  The idea of a God/Creator who is eternal eliminates that problem but then creates a new problem in trying to understand what "eternal" means...


Why does an intelligent entity require a creator and why can't it evolve?

If it does, then why doesn't God require the same thing?

Is eternal existence the only difference then, between God and sentient life ?

If your argument rests on the premise that evolution is impossible and that since life is mortal and therefore if sentient beings are not eternal, the only way they could have come into existence is to be created, then what of the idea that there was no first sentient being, that generations mortal sentient beings go back through eternity past? Then they wouldn't need to be created in the same way that an eternal God wouldn't need to be created. Sentient life would then be, in effect, mortal gods.
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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

ReverendRyan

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1460 on: March 11, 2007, 05:18:09 AM »

No, I'm merely admitting that a superior alien race that had the ability to engineer us would be a similar speculation as to our existance.  An alien race differs in that someone would have had to engineer them.  The idea of a God/Creator who is eternal eliminates that problem but then creates a new problem in trying to understand what "eternal" means...

If something is so complex, it requires a more complex creator, then said creator is so complex, he requires a more complex creator, so said creator is so complex, he requires a more complex creator, so said creator is so complex, he requires a more complex creator, so said creator is so complex, he requires a more complex creator, so said creator is so complex, he requires a more complex creator, so said creator is so complex, he requires a more complex creator, so said creator is so complex, he requires a more complex creator, so said creator is so complex, he requires a more complex creator, so said creator is so complex, he requires a more complex creator, so said creator is so complex, he requires a more complex creator, so said creator is so complex, he requires a more complex creator, so said creator is so complex, he requires a more complex creator, so said creator is so complex, he requires a more complex creator, so said creator is so complex, he requires a more complex creator, so said creator is so complex, he requires a more complex creator, so said creator is so complex, he requires a more complex creator, so said creator is so complex, he requires a more complex creator......

The immaculate induction, man....mathematical proof you're full of shit.
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ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1461 on: March 11, 2007, 07:21:04 AM »

Truly this is the mystery of creation that our puny minds cannot fathom.  "Creation from nothing" has the same problem.  First there was nothing, then "boom" there was everything - expanding for billions, then collapsing into nothing, then "boom" - there was everything - expanding for billions, then collapsing into nothing, then "boom" - there was everything - expanding for billions, then collapsing into nothing, then "boom" - there was everything - expanding for billions, then collapsing into nothing, then "boom" - there was everything - expanding for billions, then collapsing into nothing, then "boom" - there was everything - expanding for billions, then collapsing into nothing, then "boom" - there was everything - expanding for billions, then collapsing into nothing, then "boom" - there was everything - expanding for billions, then collapsing into nothing, then "boom" - there was everything - expanding for billions, then collapsing into nothing, then "boom" - there was everything - expanding for billions, then collapsing into nothing, then "boom" - there was everything - expanding for billions, then collapsing into nothing, then "boom" - there was everything - expanding for billions, then collapsing into nothing, then "boom" - there was everything - expanding for billions, then collapsing into nothing, then "boom" - there was everything - expanding for billions, then collapsing into nothing, then "boom" - there was everything - expanding for billions, then collapsing into nothing, then "boom" - there was everything - expanding for billions, then collapsing into nothing, then "boom" -

ad infinitum...

Minsk

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1462 on: March 11, 2007, 08:11:15 AM »

Truly this is the mystery of creation that our puny minds cannot fathom.  "Creation from nothing" has the same problem.

Do you see a difference between a claim that a particular image of a higher power created the universe through some process, and that the universe appeared through some process that probably behaved much like what we can observe experimentally?

(Hint: the former requires disproving all other higher powers, which tend to claim immunity to proof or disproof. Good luck...)
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ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1463 on: March 11, 2007, 09:33:14 AM »

Of course we have never "observed experimentally" a condition where matter appears from nothing...

theCelestrian

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1464 on: March 11, 2007, 09:46:03 AM »

When I was younger I used to be obsessed about religion/God and his/her/its nature, heck I even tried "converting" to Shinto in 7th grade (not being Japanese ended that one real fast):

I live my life.  I look around and I see some wonderful things, I see the outward expression of organic organisms in the fibonachi sequence, I taste sweet, sweet hydro-carbon molecules, and marvel how if one "universal constant" was screwed up...everything would crumble.

Then I see that everything that we have been able to "discover" has shown that "God's hand" isn't required to constantly make it work.  I think of my experiences as a programmer.  I code something that when it compiles is entirely self-contained.  I never need to touch it once it starts, and all those 1 and 0s whiz by in a circuit board not of my design and are completely ignorant of the fact that it was indeed me that didn't "create" them, but set them on the "path".  Any comments I write in there that say, "written by Branden" are parsed out by a development environment not of my making, thus removing any "smoking guns" of my participation.

I don't know if those pulses of electricity, once within the confines of the circuit board, can suddenly use the other resources within their sphere of existance to pontificate why they were set in motion, where they came from, and where they will go once that final bit of machine code is executed....nor do I particularly care...they're doing exactly what I wanted to regardless of their desires, even if that function is be completely random based upon a variety of factors including those I have no control over.  I made the program to suit some purpose of mine; either for a client or for whim....the execution of the program is the end goal, the output it generates is the desire of whomever I coded it for.

If god does exist (and I'm not sure he/she/it does), it seems so far that everything we have been able to observe and measure (and remember, we only had a real consistent and codified "method" for doing this for about 1000 or so years [VERY conservative estimate]), God doesn't seem to be actively playing a part in the execution of what we call "existence."... however, if God does exist, and it's anything similar to the allegory I just described, then that raises some very profound and troubling questions about whether or not my "free will" really is that.

...so as I live my life, he/she/it doesn't enter my equations.  I marvel at what is "existence" and have come to the conclusion that I will never ever be able to prove whether or not I was designed by some omniscient being, or if I'm simply the result of multi-billion year process beginning with the formation of the most basic ammino acids.

....and if either can be proved conclusively tomorrow, does that make the life I'm living suddenly more or less "real" or "significant" than it is now?

(EDIT: I didn't "create" the electrons the make up the electrical pulses, so I adjusted that in my allegory)
« Last Edit: March 11, 2007, 09:53:57 AM by theCelestrian »
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freeAgent

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1465 on: March 11, 2007, 04:04:59 PM »

I taste sweet, sweet hydro-carbon molecules

You're making me hungry :)
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ReverendRyan

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1466 on: March 11, 2007, 04:51:34 PM »

Of course we have never "observed experimentally" a condition where matter appears from nothing...

Who said there was nothing? Oh yeah, that little book you put so much stock in.
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ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1467 on: March 11, 2007, 06:14:18 PM »

Of course we have never "observed experimentally" a condition where matter appears from nothing...

Who said there was nothing? Oh yeah, that little book you put so much stock in.

No, scientists who promote the theory of the bang large...

ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1468 on: March 11, 2007, 06:21:24 PM »


Then I see that everything that we have been able to "discover" has shown that "God's hand" isn't required to constantly make it work.  I think of my experiences as a programmer.  I code something that when it compiles is entirely self-contained.  I never need to touch it once it starts, and all those 1 and 0s whiz by in a circuit board not of my design and are completely ignorant of the fact that it was indeed me that didn't "create" them, but set them on the "path".  Any comments I write in there that say, "written by Branden" are parsed out by a development environment not of my making, thus removing any "smoking guns" of my participation.


Actually, the "programmer" analogy is a very good one.  You see your program did not happen by itself.  A bunch of lines of code didn't just happen by random chance but rather it took an "intellegent designer" in order to give them order.  Of course people will postulate that given enough time, even a program can come about but actual observations show the opposite.  Random actions bring about disorder not order.  Someone I'm sure will try to throw out "chaos theory" here, but I've never seen any example of organization from random action.

ReverendRyan

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #1469 on: March 11, 2007, 06:42:42 PM »

yet you allege the "programmer" needed a "designer." Therefore, the "designer" needed a "maker, the "maker" needed a "composer" and the "composer" needed an "author" and the "author needed a "deviser" and the "deviser" needed an "actualizer" and the "actualizer" needed an "establisher" and the "establisher needed a "fabricator" and the "fabricator" needed an "inventor" and the "inventor" needed a "maker" and the "maker"  needed a "producer" and the "producer" needed.....

Moral of the story: You're not the only person who owns a thesaurus, fucktard.
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