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ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2985 on: November 23, 2009, 09:11:21 PM »

I'm arguing that "government" is "illegitimate" by the fact that it is a fiction

"Legitimate" does not mean "existent" or "true."  It means "justified."   If things had to be legitimate in order to be true, then gang wars, rape, and suicide bombers wouldn't exist.   That would be a lovely world to live in, but unfortunately we don't. 


Are you really having such difficulty understanding this or are you just trying to be difficult?  If you analyze the sentence, you will see that "gov" is "illegit" BECAUSE it IS a FICTION...  As a FICTION, it can NEVER be "legit"...  This has absolutely nothing to do with crimes committed by MEN.  The crimes that are committed are indeed "legit" as they are actions which most people call "crimes".  As such, those actions are LEGITIMATE CRIMES !!  Of course the word does not mean "justified" and had never been presented here with that meaning.

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2986 on: November 23, 2009, 09:22:02 PM »

I'm arguing that "government" is "illegitimate" by the fact that it is a fiction

"Legitimate" does not mean "existent" or "true."  It means "justified."   If things had to be legitimate in order to be true, then gang wars, rape, and suicide bombers wouldn't exist.   That would be a lovely world to live in, but unfortunately we don't. 


Are you really having such difficulty understanding this or are you just trying to be difficult?  If you analyze the sentence, you will see that "gov" is "illegit" BECAUSE it IS a FICTION...  As a FICTION, it can NEVER be "legit"...  This has absolutely nothing to do with crimes committed by MEN.  The crimes that are committed are indeed "legit" as they are actions which most people call "crimes".  As such, those actions are LEGITIMATE CRIMES !!  Of course the word does not mean "justified" and had never been presented here with that meaning.

What the hell do you define "fiction" as, anyway?   For the rest of us in the rational world, it refers to something nonexistent, untrue.  And the fact remains that there are loads of things which are illegitimate.  Illegitimate things exist.  Deal with it.  You can't define government out of existence.  It's still there, whether you like it or not.  Once you learn the actual purpose of scare quotes, you might get around to recognizing that. 
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ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2987 on: November 23, 2009, 09:48:42 PM »

This is how I define fiction:

fic⋅tion
  /ˈfɪkʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [fik-shuhn] Show IPA
Use fiction in a Sentence
See web results for fiction
See images of fiction
–noun
1.    the class of literature comprising works of imaginative narration, esp. in prose form.
2.    works of this class, as novels or short stories: detective fiction.
3.    something feigned, invented, or imagined; a made-up story: We've all heard the fiction of her being in delicate health.
4.    the act of feigning, inventing, or imagining.
5.    an imaginary thing or event, postulated for the purposes of argument or explanation.
6.    Law. an allegation that a fact exists that is known not to exist, made by authority of law to bring a case within the operation of a rule of law.

I guess the rest of the "rational" world uses a different meaning...

And I don't have to define government out of existence.  It does not exist.  Men with guns who believe in some "authority" called "government" do exist.  You confuse the existence of cult members as the existence of their god...

thersites

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2988 on: November 23, 2009, 10:15:43 PM »

I'm arguing that "government" is "illegitimate" by the fact that it is a fiction

"Legitimate" does not mean "existent" or "true."  It means "justified."   If things had to be legitimate in order to be true, then gang wars, rape, and suicide bombers wouldn't exist.   That would be a lovely world to live in, but unfortunately we don't.  


Are you really having such difficulty understanding this or are you just trying to be difficult?  If you analyze the sentence, you will see that "gov" is "illegit" BECAUSE it IS a FICTION...  As a FICTION, it can NEVER be "legit"...  This has absolutely nothing to do with crimes committed by MEN.  The crimes that are committed are indeed "legit" as they are actions which most people call "crimes".  As such, those actions are LEGITIMATE CRIMES !!  Of course the word does not mean "justified" and had never been presented here with that meaning.

What the hell do you define "fiction" as, anyway?   For the rest of us in the rational world, it refers to something nonexistent, untrue.  And the fact remains that there are loads of things which are illegitimate.  Illegitimate things exist.  Deal with it.  You can't define government out of existence.  It's still there, whether you like it or not.  Once you learn the actual purpose of scare quotes, you might get around to recognizing that.  

Rillion, the State, just like a corporation, is a legal fiction-this is a real term for something that does not actually exist-like Wal-Mart as an entity that can be sued-rather than its managers and owners, or as your "state" charging you with murder. The State, like a corporation, is an artificial construct that offers selective moral(and legal) cover to the individuals who compose it. You cannot shake hands with Wal-Mart, or with Georgia or the US, because both of those things are simply ideas. People act, not ideas.

This is the core of individualism, the realization that only individuals act-anything else is mysticism. and worse, usually it is mysticism used to defend all of those horrible acts that are done by individuals.  

Perhaps to better clarify this-the "United States" did not atom bomb Hiroshima, Thomas Ferebee, the bombardier of the Enola Gay looked through a bomb sight and incinerated a city, because he believed it was his duty to....an organization. And people say religion is dangerous.  
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 10:18:53 PM by thersites »
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Rillion

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2989 on: November 23, 2009, 10:19:34 PM »

If somebody could explain what the meaningful distinction is in describing government as a fiction, I would eternally grateful.  As it stands, it sounds like the stupidest argument ever in favor of anarchy.  Re-arranging the definitions of terms does not re-arrange the world. 
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ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2990 on: November 24, 2009, 07:31:47 AM »

If somebody could explain what the meaningful distinction is in describing government as a fiction, I would eternally grateful.  As it stands, it sounds like the stupidest argument ever in favor of anarchy.  Re-arranging the definitions of terms does not re-arrange the world. 

You're right, the world does not get re-arranged by clarifying the terms and exposing the reality of the fiction, but knowledge sets the people free.  Throughout history, the people have acted when the people woke up to the knowledge that those who claimed to be "rulers" were nothing more than criminals usurping authority they do not possess...

ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2991 on: December 08, 2009, 03:38:29 PM »


This is the core of individualism, the realization that only individuals act-anything else is mysticism. and worse, usually it is mysticism used to defend all of those horrible acts that are done by individuals.  


Great way of putting it.  I found this rather dry definition of "Legal Fiction" on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_fiction) and maybe you can take the time to edit it somewhat.  I think you can improve on it...

ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2992 on: December 16, 2009, 08:45:07 PM »

I feel like the unwanted stepchild...  :cry:

Everytime I call the show lately, Ian puts me on hold for at least an hour...  This is Wednesday, a slow day for talk shows and now I've been on hold for 1:06 on the amp line.  I've heard Ian go through about 7 callers (yeah, I know, two were women so they go first).  If I had any feelings, they would be hurt (good thing for me I'm thick skinned - hahahahahahaha)

I SHALL HOLD FOREVER !!!!

ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2993 on: December 17, 2009, 08:02:53 AM »

"Did you know that 52 of the 55 signers of "The Declaration of Independence" were orthodox, deeply committed, Christians? The other three all believed in the Bible as the divine truth, the God of scripture, and His personal intervention.  It is the same Congress that formed the American Bible Society, immediately after creating the Declaration of Independence, the Continental Congress voted to purchase and import 20,000 copies of Scripture for the people of this nation."

http://www.errantskeptics.org/FoundingFathers.htm

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2994 on: December 17, 2009, 01:03:19 PM »

"Did you know that 52 of the 55 signers of "The Declaration of Independence" were orthodox, deeply committed, Christians? The other three all believed in the Bible as the divine truth, the God of scripture, and His personal intervention.  It is the same Congress that formed the American Bible Society, immediately after creating the Declaration of Independence, the Continental Congress voted to purchase and import 20,000 copies of Scripture for the people of this nation."

http://www.errantskeptics.org/FoundingFathers.htm


Therefore, what? That makes this a christian nation and we should adopt the bible as our governing law book?

How about stick to the separation of church and state. Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, give to God what is God's, and stay out of my life.
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ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2995 on: December 19, 2009, 06:23:22 PM »

"Did you know that 52 of the 55 signers of "The Declaration of Independence" were orthodox, deeply committed, Christians? The other three all believed in the Bible as the divine truth, the God of scripture, and His personal intervention.  It is the same Congress that formed the American Bible Society, immediately after creating the Declaration of Independence, the Continental Congress voted to purchase and import 20,000 copies of Scripture for the people of this nation."

http://www.errantskeptics.org/FoundingFathers.htm


Therefore, what? That makes this a christian nation and we should adopt the bible as our governing law book?

How about stick to the separation of church and state. Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, give to God what is God's, and stay out of my life.

No, I did not point this out to claim "Christian Nation" status but rather to show the mindset of the men who conceived this fiction USA.  They also understood the "fact" (as I claim it is) that our rights exist because they were "created" by our "Creator".  This is a sticking point for many but one that I believe really needs to be understood in order to understand liberty.  Without "rights" liberty really has no meaning.  And if "rights" come from the consensus of the minds of men, then they can be easily changed and mutilated...

ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2996 on: December 25, 2009, 08:45:48 AM »

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL - AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR !!!

BobRobertson

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2997 on: December 25, 2009, 09:35:30 AM »

Happy Zagmuk.
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ChristianAnarchist

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2998 on: December 31, 2009, 07:42:25 PM »

As we get ready to celebrate the passing of this year, I thought I would reflect on it's passing.  I have to admit, we are in better shape than I had thought we would be.  I had figured that the dollar would be trash by now and that people would be rioting in the streets.  I still believe that is what is going to happen and I  believe it will be soon, but no one can predict the exact timing.  I know that the dollar is worth maybe 70% of what it was a year ago and it's going down fast.  The Euro is also heading down and it's decline is a little faster (currently) than the dollar so it appears that the dollar has risen in value, but it hasn't.  Compare the cost of everything that you actually need to survive against the cost one year ago.  Food, and energy have risen the most and these are things consumed each day and are essential to living.  Things that are not needed (like consumer electronics) have gone down due to a couple of market related reasons and these are sometimes used to falsify the true inflation (devaluation) rate.

But anyway ...  HAPPY NEW YEAR !!!

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Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...
« Reply #2999 on: January 06, 2010, 03:32:31 AM »

I'm hoping to see at least one state either secede, or seriously move toward secession this year.  I imagine that such a move would come as a result of the health care bill's passage....
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