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alaric89

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Re: Charles Manson: where's the victim?
« Reply #30 on: February 29, 2012, 02:11:27 PM »

Not really. Ali on FTL brought it up. At first I thought what a cute little naive thingy she is.
I can't come up with a decent argument against her though, and neither can anyone else. Many a nutcase has said this or that, but the problem is the pecker head taking action, not the nut. (I thought I was clear in that someone using a mongo or animal or some other limited accountable being to kill would be murder.)
I would like to see both Hitler and Charles Manson boiled alive but I think the world would be better served to go after the people with the actual blood on their hands just to instill fear in the weak minded sheep that make the nutcase's nightmares a reality. They are responsible for what they done no excuses. I think if the sheep knew they had no excuses they would think before they followed evil orders.
Personally I like to see the guy giving the orders fry as well. Here is the problem with that:
Lets say LibPar suddenly happens and myself and QuickMike have to figure out who gets to be held accountable over the ex marine that was killed in front of his family last year.
The easiest and most usefull thing to do would be to send the squad that did the actual killing off to Rape Island. (where your greatest fantasy DOESN'T happen)
If we took the people who gave the orders it would be, The Judge that gave the order, his staff, the prosecuter, everyone involved with their investigation and acquittal, plus their chain of command all the way up to the supreme court and Obama.
If my fantasy to hang every Nazi enabler after WW2 happened, to be honest it would have been a bloodbath and a counter productive one at that. The entire city of Munken would hang.
The line of guilt has to be drawn somewhere or murder by the state is legit, saying the killer himself is the guilty one makes sure no killer has anything resembling a excuse. They are simply a fucking dangerous killer with no business in society. A nut case saying people should kill for him, God, The people, or whatever is just a sad lonely asshole.
I agree that someone who hires a assassin is a murderer in the same vain as the one who uses retards or cobras. However I think a hired assassin is a full out murderer and would get whatever consequences as such, for every murder they did, like a serial killer would.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 02:14:56 PM by alaric89 »
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KDus

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Re: Charles Manson: where's the victim?
« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2012, 08:28:07 PM »

Al and KDus, you're both considering a false dichotomy. We aren't limited to holding just one party responsible. Both assassins and whoever hires assassins are responsible for murder. They're both actively trying to bring about the death of another person. Manson AND the people he persuaded are guilty.

The only thing that should bring the persuader's guilt into question is perhaps if he couldn't reasonably expect his actions or requests to result in the deaths of innocent people. Like, if someone off-handedly says "Someone should put a bullet in so-and-so's head!", they shouldn't reasonably expect that to actually accomplish anything. Manson willfully acted in such a manner as to clearly result in deaths. If I persuaded someone with large sums of money to kill someone, I can reasonably expect that action to result in death. That's murder, just like the tiger example above, or if I'd let a deadly snake out into their room or if I'd put something in their food that I knew they were deadly allergic to, etc. You saying someone can't commit murder in any other way than to pick up a weapon and directly attack someone? That's absurd!

I suspect active trolling. This is too overtly retarded to be 4 rlz.
Humans are not deadly snakes, tigers, bear traps, or guns. Humans make a choice for which they are responsible.

No, there are other ways to commit murder; such as denying someone air, food, water , while they are a prisoner.
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dalebert

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Re: Charles Manson: where's the victim?
« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2012, 09:11:38 PM »

Humans make a choice for which they are responsible.

I agree, but people can also work in concert with a goal of murder and we're back to being able to hold more than one person accountable. What morally separates Manson from someone who hires an assassin?

KDus

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Re: Charles Manson: where's the victim?
« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2012, 11:41:42 PM »

Humans make a choice for which they are responsible.

I agree, but people can also work in concert with a goal of murder and we're back to being able to hold more than one person accountable. What morally separates Manson from someone who hires an assassin?

Nothing, and neither is guilty of murder because neither uses coercion.
Immoral persuasion, yes, but no violence is involved. The assassin commits violence, not the customer.
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Bill Brasky

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Re: Charles Manson: where's the victim?
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2012, 03:40:24 AM »

I'm not reading this whole thread. 

Instead, I will give you the following words to consider:

Cult.  Manipulator.  Charisma. 

Take your time considering those words, don't kneejerk.


The 60's were a weird time.  There were drugs nobody had ever experienced before.  Probably a hundred times better than the garbage you've ever gotten your hands on. 

Manson is not just a charismatic manipulator, but probably THE charismatic manipulator of his time.  Especially in those closed circumstances.

The people who wanted to please him and were under his control are sycophants.  To this day, there are "Mansonites" who were in his crew, and view him as a savior. 

The word "control" is not being used lightly here.  What he said, goes.  Not only were his cohorts willing to do his bidding, but they were basically brainwashed into it.  Pleasing a leader is part fear, part reward.

Manson is a murderer, and theres no bones about it - except for Sharon Tates.

For what it's worth, I see a lot of people defending him, who do exactly what another person says.

This is one of the (many) reasons I believe in Individualism, and don't like people who blindly follow "leaders", during the best part of their lives - when they don't have the life experience to make mature decisions in a clear-headed way.

Check my username, and research its meaning. 







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KDus

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Re: Charles Manson: where's the victim?
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2012, 04:40:04 PM »

Consider these words:

rights, responsibilities, choices

You are suggesting that persons who voluntarily give up their autonomy are transferring the responsibility of their actions to the manipulator.
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John Shaw

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Re: Charles Manson: where's the victim?
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2012, 05:20:45 PM »

You are suggesting that persons who voluntarily give up their autonomy are transferring the responsibility of their actions to the manipulator.

No, they're sharing it with them.

Stop being on crack or I'll hire a hitman to shoot you and there's nothing you can do about it because I didn't do anything wrong*.


*That was a joke.
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Fred

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Re: Charles Manson: where's the victim?
« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2012, 05:24:53 PM »

You are suggesting that persons who voluntarily give up their autonomy are transferring the responsibility of their actions to the manipulator.

No, they're sharing it with them.

Stop being on crack or I'll hire a hitman to shoot you and there's nothing you can do about it because I didn't do anything wrong*.


*That was a joke.
 :D :) 8) :lol:


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dalebert

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Re: Charles Manson: where's the victim?
« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2012, 07:20:13 PM »

So if a few guys team up to rob the museum one night, the guy who sits in the van with a headset on, watching for cops, looking at the map of the museum and coordinates, communicating with the folks inside and GUIDING them through it, the planner, he's not a thief?

You're fucking retarded.

John Shaw

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Re: Charles Manson: where's the victim?
« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2012, 10:30:13 PM »

You're fucking retarded.

I know, right?
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alaric89

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Re: Charles Manson: where's the victim?
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2012, 01:30:30 AM »

Why the straw men and insults guys?
How many levels up would you like to punish for some killer to excuse his crimes?
I killed the baby because so and so said babies are evil. I listened to Puke and the Gang shortly before I did it. So I am off the hook and Puke has to fry right?
See, sticking with the actual killer /killers simplifies the whole thing. The worlds problems as I see it are not the sociopaths but the people who do the sociopaths bidding.
Being a accessory in a crime is different then using influence, Dale. And before you use a red herring on me, no planning isn't a crime unless the planner received payment or benefit from the crime. If only planning a crime made someone a accessory almost every action movie or mystery novel writer could be guilty of something.
I don't like the fact that Ali was right, or at least she mopped the floor with Mark and Ian on that show to any princepiled person listening, but she did. I would like to see Me and KDus lose this argument but all I see are tricks and insults.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 01:58:17 AM by alaric89 »
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KDus

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Re: Charles Manson: where's the victim?
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2012, 11:46:01 AM »

So if a few guys team up to rob the museum one night, the guy who sits in the van with a headset on, watching for cops, looking at the map of the museum and coordinates, communicating with the folks inside and GUIDING them through it, the planner, he's not a thief?

You're fucking retarded.

Until he is knowingly in possession off another's property without permission, he is not a thief.
Until then, it is just words and thoughts.
How many people are responsible for a bomb being dropped in Iraq? It takes thousands of people to build, transport, deploy, and guide a bomb; but one person pushes the button.
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dalebert

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Re: Charles Manson: where's the victim?
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2012, 01:49:22 PM »

That's exactly why I clarified motivations earlier. If the person can reasonably expect their actions to result in death, they're a murderer when they execute those actions, like paying a fucking assassin who is known to go kill people for money! If the planner of the museum robbery engages in all those actions with the plan of stealing something and splitting the money with the others, then he's a thief. If Manson desires the death of some people (that's his reward, his "share" of the loot), and he engages in actions with full knowledge that his actions will likely result in their deaths, then he's also responsible for the murder just as the robbery planner is also a thief.

alaric89

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Re: Charles Manson: where's the victim?
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2012, 02:13:49 PM »

That is right. And, if we buy that, then some fucking lawyer would justify convicting a gun manufacturer because he could reasonably expect someone would use his product to kill.
Dale, we KNOW statist would misuse any inconsistent precedent to gain power. (or justify giving rights away)
Giving people the responsibilities and consequences for their thoughts and influence admits that political power is legit.

SeanD

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Re: Charles Manson: where's the victim?
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2012, 02:15:16 PM »

OK let's go all Godwin's rule here and discuss Nazis and genocide.

100 Jews marched into a gas chamber and killed.

Who has all/some/none of the responsibility for deaths here?
The 4 soldiers that marched them in at gunpoint and locked the door? all/some/none
The scientist that opened the gas valve? all/some/none
The Leftenant that selected the 100 and ordered their gassing?  all/some/none
The camp Commandant that oversaw hundreds of executions similar to this one?  all/some/none
Adolf Fucking Hitler that came up with the plan in the 1st place?  all/some/none

Sounds to me that KDus would only punish the 4 soldiers and the scientist where to me they seem like small pieces in a much larger pie  that can be replaced and have the actions be repeated.

Failure to lock Manson up and remove him from "civilized" society allows him to recruit more people to go after his next target.

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