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Author Topic: Charles Manson: where's the victim?  (Read 21424 times)

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Tom Foppiano

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Re: Charles Manson: where's the victim?
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2012, 05:43:55 PM »

I don't like it when people say someone is a "tool" of someone else and the tool had no choice but to kill because they are brainwashed. But didn't Manson conspire to commit murder? Wasn't he involved in the planning of those crimes?

IMO, there is a difference between someone saying, "The earth is overcrowded and the cancer called humanity must be removed," and someone saying, "Hey guys. I want you to go to this house, use these weapons, and kill everyone. Do it tomorrow night at 11:00pm. I'll send you mapquest directions after I eat dinner." The 2nd one involves planning and specific instructions, while the first one doesn't. Maybe I need to read more on this issue, but I think a mob boss who "orders" a hit is guilty of conspiracy to commit murder even if he doesn't pay money to the hit-man (or hit-woman or hit-human).
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KDus

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Re: Charles Manson: where's the victim?
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2012, 08:35:39 PM »

Again, I ask: Why is person A responsible for the actions of person B when there is no evidence of coercion? Persuasion, maybe; not coercion.
Since when did persuasion become an act of violence?

Because he had a terrible idea? Because we don't agree with his idea?

Are you really willing to say a person is like a tool, object, or weapon to be used by another? If so, why are most of them doing life in prison. Why are they responsible? We don't put guns in prison.
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John Shaw

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Re: Charles Manson: where's the victim?
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2012, 10:07:58 PM »

Again, I ask: Why is person A responsible for the actions of person B when there is no evidence of coercion? Persuasion, maybe; not coercion.
Since when did persuasion become an act of violence?

Because he had a terrible idea? Because we don't agree with his idea?

Are you really willing to say a person is like a tool, object, or weapon to be used by another? If so, why are most of them doing life in prison. Why are they responsible? We don't put guns in prison.

Is it murder to hire assassins, yes or no?
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Turd Ferguson

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Re: Charles Manson: where's the victim?
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2012, 12:14:30 AM »

Yeah, but these weren't assassins, they were impressionable people that got swooned by the charms of a psychopathic cult leader, so Manson shouldn't be held responsible for.....wait I think im doing this all wrong.
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dalebert

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Re: Charles Manson: where's the victim?
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2012, 01:22:41 AM »

Are you really willing to say a person is like a tool, object, or weapon to be used by another? If so, why are most of them doing life in prison. Why are they responsible? We don't put guns in prison.

They're responsible as well. Both the assassins and the person employing them are guilty of premeditated murder. And yes, they were assassins. If you accept a job to paint a house, whether it's for money or because the owner is hot and offered to have sex with you or whatever motivation they used, you're now a painter. Doesn't matter that you haven't gone to painting school and gotten a title as a painter, etc. You're painting!

KDus

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Re: Charles Manson: where's the victim?
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2012, 09:17:30 PM »

Are you really willing to say a person is like a tool, object, or weapon to be used by another? If so, why are most of them doing life in prison. Why are they responsible? We don't put guns in prison.

They're responsible as well. Both the assassins and the person employing them are guilty of premeditated murder. And yes, they were assassins. If you accept a job to paint a house, whether it's for money or because the owner is hot and offered to have sex with you or whatever motivation they used, you're now a painter. Doesn't matter that you haven't gone to painting school and gotten a title as a painter, etc. You're painting!

So, the owner is a painter because he/she hires painters?
Persuasion is not the same as coercion.
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KDus

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Re: Charles Manson: where's the victim?
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2012, 09:19:33 PM »

Again, I ask: Why is person A responsible for the actions of person B when there is no evidence of coercion? Persuasion, maybe; not coercion.
Since when did persuasion become an act of violence?

Because he had a terrible idea? Because we don't agree with his idea?

Are you really willing to say a person is like a tool, object, or weapon to be used by another? If so, why are most of them doing life in prison. Why are they responsible? We don't put guns in prison.

Is it murder to hire assassins, yes or no?

No, it is murder to coerce someone to kill.
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John Shaw

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Re: Charles Manson: where's the victim?
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2012, 10:18:34 PM »

Again, I ask: Why is person A responsible for the actions of person B when there is no evidence of coercion? Persuasion, maybe; not coercion.
Since when did persuasion become an act of violence?

Because he had a terrible idea? Because we don't agree with his idea?

Are you really willing to say a person is like a tool, object, or weapon to be used by another? If so, why are most of them doing life in prison. Why are they responsible? We don't put guns in prison.

Is it murder to hire assassins, yes or no?

No, it is murder to coerce someone to kill.

Great, so soldiers are perfectly justified in going to war. Got it.

You're a fuckin' retard on this one.
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dalebert

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Re: Charles Manson: where's the victim?
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2012, 10:23:41 AM »

Is it murder to hire assassins, yes or no?

No, it is murder to coerce someone to kill.

You're a psychopath.

alaric89

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Re: Charles Manson: where's the victim?
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2012, 03:55:50 PM »

Lets put it this way. If Chuck says kill "such en such" from his cell and some loon does it. Should the killer be off the hook because chuck told them to? Should Chuck get a extra life sentence for that too?
Able body enablers use their weak minds as a excuse to do wrong. The people who did the crime are more guilty then the one who told them to do it for whatever reason. That Psycho bitch Squeaky deserves her lifetime sentence as hot a killer flower child as she was in 1972. (The crime scene when they murdered the almost to term pregnant Sharon Tate was disgusting, I hope there is a hell just so that bitch and the rest can rot in it)
I think what KDus meant by "coercion" was like holding a gun to your little girls head and forcing you to kill, or something like that. I agree that is a different animal and the baby threaten-er is the murderer in that instance. I believe this argument covers soldiers as well to a point, they will be shot if they do not follow orders. (At this point I submit to the UCMJ. Soldiers can only go so far before they are responsible for their actions and I generally agree that international law.)
Cops are not soldiers. If they do not follow orders they simply lose their jobs.
 If some twit orders you to do something horrible and you do it, you are the guilty one- not the cowardly lunatic you didn't kill instead. I would have released Hitler (and when he was hunted  down and shot would have put little to no effort into finding the perpetrator, I like those fucks to die like Mussolini or Qaddafi, I had to rub one out when I saw the Qaddafi death videos) and hanged every single cop who helped arrest the Jews, had I been the one to decide after WW2. Most of the murderers got off BTW, they even got credit for their retirement for the years when they were a Nazi bureaucrat.
 We wouldn't have all these kingshit cops right now had that happened. Psycho's trying to run the world get hanged all the time they just come back.
 If People understood they would be held accountable if they followed evil orders, they would give it a bit of thought.
Lunatics who give stupid evil orders should be laughed at and spit on like the human jokes they are.

Fred

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Re: Charles Manson: where's the victim?
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2012, 04:16:59 PM »

godamn al....
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Turd Ferguson

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Re: Charles Manson: where's the victim?
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2012, 05:15:18 PM »

So, if I convince a full-on, super strong retard that he needs to strangle the woman down the street because "the demons will come get him if he doesn't", he should go to prison for life and I should walk, no problem?

If the answer is no, where do you draw the line on manipulation?
« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 05:19:25 PM by quickmike »
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alaric89

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Re: Charles Manson: where's the victim?
« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2012, 05:47:24 PM »

Of course not. Some goof couldn't claim innocence if he locked his victim in with a hungry tiger either.
"I didn't kill that bitch, the tiger did!"
"Yeah sure. Go to the fucking island."
I don't know how it would work, but I assume children and special needs people (and pets and livestock for that matter) wouldn't have the same freedoms or responsibilities as a able bodied adult in a free society.

KDus

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Re: Charles Manson: where's the victim?
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2012, 08:12:03 PM »

So, if I convince a full-on, super strong retard that he needs to strangle the woman down the street because "the demons will come get him if he doesn't", he should go to prison for life and I should walk, no problem?

If the answer is no, where do you draw the line on manipulation?
You have deviated from the Manson topic but the point is a good one.

The line between persuasion and coercion is pretty clear.

We are all "convinced" to make choices every day. I will need to think about what factors are relavent to hold a person responsible for their choices.
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dalebert

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Re: Charles Manson: where's the victim?
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2012, 10:28:54 PM »

Al and KDus, you're both considering a false dichotomy. We aren't limited to holding just one party responsible. Both assassins and whoever hires assassins are responsible for murder. They're both actively trying to bring about the death of another person. Manson AND the people he persuaded are guilty.

The only thing that should bring the persuader's guilt into question is perhaps if he couldn't reasonably expect his actions or requests to result in the deaths of innocent people. Like, if someone off-handedly says "Someone should put a bullet in so-and-so's head!", they shouldn't reasonably expect that to actually accomplish anything. Manson willfully acted in such a manner as to clearly result in deaths. If I persuaded someone with large sums of money to kill someone, I can reasonably expect that action to result in death. That's murder, just like the tiger example above, or if I'd let a deadly snake out into their room or if I'd put something in their food that I knew they were deadly allergic to, etc. You saying someone can't commit murder in any other way than to pick up a weapon and directly attack someone? That's absurd!

I suspect active trolling. This is too overtly retarded to be 4 rlz.
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