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Author Topic: Bye, bye to masquerading as a libertarian  (Read 18417 times)

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HOO-HAA

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Re: Bye, bye to masquerading as a libertarian
« Reply #45 on: September 19, 2008, 05:42:00 PM »

Quote from: HOO-HAA on Today at 15:34:21
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I think that the problem with libertarianism , for Ziggy - and for many others, is that the lack of tax-funded welfare and aversion to foreign aid often equates to social darwinism ie: libertarians advocate 'survival of the fittest' (to the detriment of the weaker and vulnerable elements of society/ the world).



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That's a common misconception.  Just because we don't want government aid for others does not mean we don't want aid for others--many of us would even personally provide for it.

I agree - in fact, without government using our tax to fund whatever foreign aid *they* deem necessary, we would most likely choose to donate more to those charitable causes *we* feel most passionate about.

And then there's the contributions that would come from businesses that are altrusitic and/or looking for the PR.

Personally, I currently describe myself as libertarian yet my day job is with a charity. I see no conflict of interests. In fact, as most of our work involves representing clients who are challenging decisions made by the government, I feel quite empowered to do my job by my libertarian mindset.

For Ziggy, however, the libertarian conflict with government welfare programs seemed to be the main problem... 
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trollfreezone

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Re: Bye, bye to masquerading as a libertarian
« Reply #46 on: September 19, 2008, 05:56:55 PM »

Quote from: HOO-HAA on Today at 15:34:21
Quote
I think that the problem with libertarianism , for Ziggy - and for many others, is that the lack of tax-funded welfare and aversion to foreign aid often equates to social darwinism ie: libertarians advocate 'survival of the fittest' (to the detriment of the weaker and vulnerable elements of society/ the world).



Quote
That's a common misconception.  Just because we don't want government aid for others does not mean we don't want aid for others--many of us would even personally provide for it.

I agree - in fact, without government using our tax to fund whatever foreign aid *they* deem necessary, we would most likely choose to donate more to those charitable causes *we* feel most passionate about.

And then there's the contributions that would come from businesses that are altrusitic and/or looking for the PR.

Personally, I currently describe myself as libertarian yet my day job is with a charity. I see no conflict of interests. In fact, as most of our work involves representing clients who are challenging decisions made by the government, I feel quite empowered to do my job by my libertarian mindset.

For Ziggy, however, the libertarian conflict with government welfare programs seemed to be the main problem... 

I think somehow that must be related to the problem the Service Nazis have.
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Harry Tuttle

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Re: Bye, bye to masquerading as a libertarian
« Reply #47 on: September 19, 2008, 06:14:07 PM »

This is the basic underpinning of all anti-liberty thought:

Of course I love liberty, except for X. X being the one cause that is more important to me than my neighbor's liberty.

Ziggy must have a self-esteem problem to think that his fellow man would stand around and let him die. Isn't the government simply a xollection of people? If people don't care about you, then how could your precious collective?
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"If you're giving up your freedom to have freedom you don't have freedom, dummy."              - Mark Edge (10/11/08 show)

burnthebeautiful

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Re: Bye, bye to masquerading as a libertarian
« Reply #48 on: September 19, 2008, 10:34:19 PM »

Again, no such thing as a libertarian state, but there is such a thing as a socialist nation--the moment they begin redistributing wealth, they're socialist nations.  Just because most of the nations are socialist by this definition doesn't mean the definition needs changing.  The twisted definition is a sign of the times.

I disagree that all a government has to do is redistribute wealth in order to be socialist. Socialism is more than that.
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therealritasue

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Re: Bye, bye to masquerading as a libertarian
« Reply #49 on: September 19, 2008, 10:47:00 PM »

Socialism is defined as when a government owns the means of production. It's not just about redistribution of wealth. Most countries aren't "socialist nations" or "capitalist nations". They're mixed economies. It's just a matter of the degree to which a nation's means of production is owned by the government.
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trollfreezone

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Re: Bye, bye to masquerading as a libertarian
« Reply #50 on: September 20, 2008, 04:45:08 PM »

From each according to his ability (income tax rate) to each according to his need (welfare.) -- Karl Marx

They've even managed to brainwash some libertarians into thinking that's not socialism.

'nuf said.
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Sam A. Robrin

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Re: Bye, bye to masquerading as a libertarian
« Reply #51 on: September 21, 2008, 01:41:25 AM »

I'm really pretty tired of the whole "you're not in it for liberty, you're in it for pot" argument. 

I've quite had it with the "I can read your mind, and your motives are malevolent" argument regardless of which direction it comes from.  Anyone who resorts to that tired old dodge has said more about his own evil motives than he can ever possibly surmise about mine.
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notsosly

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Re: Bye, bye to masquerading as a libertarian
« Reply #52 on: September 21, 2008, 02:29:27 PM »

Heheh, I'm laughing 'cuz as I read this I was watching a show about how greenhouses in Germany are getting co2 piped in from factories producing it.  They pump the co2 into the greenhouses which then produce denser, more leafy and hardy plants and....... OXYGEN!!!!!  Hell, if piping it in became unfeasable, they could turn it into dry ice and ship it to them!  Every time I buy perishables to be shipped to me it comes packed in the stuff.

Let's see, how many issues does this process address at the same time....  Global warming of course, food production, air pollution in general, unemployment and poverty.  All addressed by businesses struggling to survive in socialistland.  Imagine what they could do with this one simple idea if government weren't in the way!

Ziggy, since it's a hard reality that poverty, sickness and destitution exist whether there is government or not, we simply have to examine what method works best to minimize the impact of them in the real world.  You maintain that government provides a means to keep individuals from behaving recklessly and irrationally selfish by ignoring their neighbor's plight (whatever that may be).

I contend that this behavior not only flourishes under governments, it is always abetted by and participated in by government.  This is commonly known as corruption, and government of any kind can be counted on to make becoming corrupt its first order of business.  Just take a drive through the west side of Chicago to see this in every form available in the US.  Those unfortunates get 'taken care of' by federal, state, county, municipal and 'community' 'efforts' to alleviate poverty, ignorance and hopelessness.  They are some of the most impoverished, ignorant and hopeless people in the US.

Don't waste time defending your current position (I certainly don't care whether you are really libertarian or not).  Instead, take a moment to ask yourself; is it really the coercion of government that actually solves problems and alleviates suffering?  Or, is it creative people rationally interested in creating a better world\country\community in which to trade?  If it is the individual that creates the solution, is the government the only vehicle able to utilize it?  Better yet, ask yourself if government is even capable of implementing solutions for anything?  I think it has been well documented that bureaucracy measures success by how well it conserves and perpetuates itself.  Other forms of government either only feign or completely avoid addressing the problems of its people.  That's all I'm saying.....  Just take the time to ask yourself these questions.  After that, think, feel and act the way believe is best.
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BonerJoe

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Richard Garner

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Re: Bye, bye to masquerading as a libertarian
« Reply #54 on: March 24, 2009, 12:19:52 PM »

At this point many a libertarian will disown me & maybe will want to do worse to me just for saying government can do good. It’s been pointed out to me by folk who aren’t the most hardcore socialists that in Britain that government has pretty much ensured that no individual should go without food & shelter. Sure government isn’t perfect when it comes to implementation but at least government recognizes that food & shelter as a human right. Libertarians don’t consider food & shelter a right yet they believe in the right to life, well in my mind you can’t have the right to life unless you have the means to live life.

But if other people have rights over these means such that exercising these rights means that you are deprived of them as "means to live life" then you just get a clash of rights: Exercising your right prevents them from exercising their right, and their exercising their right prevents you exercising yours. The only way, then, that you can have a right to the means to live, then, whilst avoiding these rights clashes, is if those people do not have rights over those means, so their exercising those rights won't prevent you exercising yours. But what becomes of self-ownership in that environment?

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Oh no Ziggy has crossed the threshold into positive liberty & become a hardcore socialist. Worth noting the man who coined the terms positive & negative liberty & warned of the use of positive liberty Isaiah Berlin himself was a social-liberal.

Not really relavent.

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I know libertarian who’d say that Nick Clegg’s speech yesterday to conference was totally socialistic, which kind makes me laugh & suggest a libertarian should ask an actual socialist in Britain what they think about the Liberal Democrats. I actually know libertarians who think that the expectation to care for their fellow man is socialistic. But most libertarians I know remind me of Kevin The Teenager. Yeah stroppy teenagers an apt description because on the whole libertarians do seem to be stamping their feet & having a tantrum because they can’t always get their own way. I remember having to deal with Zyra’s whole ‘why do I have to pay tax’ whinge. I never told him that maybe because instead of taking insulin for his diabetes he makes himself life threatening ill. Oh & why is that wouldn’t be because he’s schizophrenic & therefore in need of assistance if only he appreciated that. Yeah I’m grateful people do pay taxes to fund help for those who are sick & vulnerable. I’m sorry if you don’t think you should care in some way about your fellow man then you’re a fucking sociopath.

But this is nonsense: It simply does not follow from the fact that you should care in some way for your fellow men, that you therefore have a right to steal from somebody to help your fellow man, or force somebody to work to help your fellow man. I can't think of a single libertarian who doesn't think you should care in some way about your fellow man. They just don't think "therefore it is OK to threaten to arrest, imprison and generally do bad things to people who don't give you their money" follows from "you should care in some way about your fellow man."
[/quote]
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TimeLady Victorious

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Re: Bye, bye to masquerading as a libertarian
« Reply #55 on: March 24, 2009, 01:15:36 PM »

I have no idea what the fuck is going on in this topic.
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AntonLee

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Re: Bye, bye to masquerading as a libertarian
« Reply #56 on: March 24, 2009, 07:38:34 PM »

ziggy was masquerading as a libertarian and a man.
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AntonLee

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Re: Bye, bye to masquerading as a libertarian
« Reply #57 on: March 25, 2009, 03:10:39 PM »

denial is a river in Egypt.  Fuck Ziggy.
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Zappa88

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Re: Bye, bye to masquerading as a libertarian
« Reply #58 on: March 25, 2009, 03:32:06 PM »

He was like this on the forums for the UK libertarian party too.
Annoying troll is annoying.
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Taors

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Re: Bye, bye to masquerading as a libertarian
« Reply #59 on: March 26, 2009, 12:55:53 PM »

ziggy was masquerading as a libertarian and a man.

That, and Elise was talking about SWEDEN, not Switzerland. Christ. Just because they start with the same letter and are both in Europe does not mean that they're the same.
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