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Author Topic: Bye, bye to masquerading as a libertarian  (Read 18309 times)

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ziggy_encaoua

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Bye, bye to masquerading as a libertarian
« on: September 18, 2008, 05:25:54 AM »

It was I not so long ago who bailed out of a political campaign because it wasnít sticking to libertarian principle. Well thatís how I dressed it up as but the truth is I bailed out of that specific campaign simply because that campaign was not going to take a public pro legalize marijuana stance. Whatever I might say in this particular rant Iím pro legalizing marijuana, in fact Iím still pro legalizing prostitution & pro liberalizing the gun & gambling laws. But you donít have to be a libertarian or anarchist to advocate all that.

Iím accused of being inconsistent & I guess for this rant would be no different as Iím attacking libertarianism something Iíve long associated myself with. To be honest Iíve actually had a long love & hate relationship with libertarianism. Iíve described myself as a free market liberal, a classical liberal, somebody who has wanted to use any term other then libertarian to describe that they believe in greater individual freedom. This is because Iíve dreaded associating myself with the extremes of libertarians, because if I donít fit in with peopleís concept of libertarianism then I get a ton of grief, because maybe Iím not deep down a libertarian.

On the issues I probably do agree with libertarians to some extent or other but Iím not one whoís for automatic hatred of government not matter what, to me its irrational & bigoted. Oh yeah bigoted is the right correct term because with your average bigot no matter what evidence you show them that homosexuals & blacks arenít bad people theyíll carry on hating. Its just the same with many a libertarian no matter what evidence theyíre shown government can do good theyíll never agree & carry on hating.

At this point many a libertarian will disown me & maybe will want to do worse to me just for saying government can do good. Itís been pointed out to me by folk who arenít the most hardcore socialists that in Britain that government has pretty much ensured that no individual should go without food & shelter. Sure government isnít perfect when it comes to implementation but at least government recognizes that food & shelter as a human right. Libertarians donít consider food & shelter a right yet they believe in the right to life, well in my mind you canít have the right to life unless you have the means to live life. Oh no Ziggy has crossed the threshold into positive liberty & become a hardcore socialist. Worth noting the man who coined the terms positive & negative liberty & warned of the use of positive liberty Isaiah Berlin himself was a social-liberal.

I know libertarian whoíd say that Nick Cleggís speech yesterday to conference was totally socialistic, which kind makes me laugh & suggest a libertarian should ask an actual socialist in Britain what they think about the Liberal Democrats. I actually know libertarians who think that the expectation to care for their fellow man is socialistic. But most libertarians I know remind me of Kevin The Teenager. Yeah stroppy teenagers an apt description because on the whole libertarians do seem to be stamping their feet & having a tantrum because they canít always get their own way. I remember having to deal with Zyraís whole Ďwhy do I have to pay taxí whinge. I never told him that maybe because instead of taking insulin for his diabetes he makes himself life threatening ill. Oh & why is that wouldnít be because heís schizophrenic & therefore in need of assistance if only he appreciated that. Yeah Iím grateful people do pay taxes to fund help for those who are sick & vulnerable. Iím sorry if you donít think you should care in some way about your fellow man then youíre a fucking sociopath.

Sociopathic, stroppy are they apt descriptions to describe libertarians, well not all libertarians but good percentage Iíve encountered. Another apt description would be dogmatic & when Iíve banged on libertarian philosophy itís been fair accusation of me. Problem is if you attempt to deviate from libertarian philosophy then youíll get whole load of crap from libertarians youíre not libertarian, which would be correct Iím nor Iím a born again social liberal & proud of it. However is it not an irony that libertarians who by nature are total individualists yet so dogmatic about it.

Iíd still say Iím an individualist to a good extent for instance if you have a group of people & thereís one individual who happens to passively not conform as in having dyed pink hair etc, I donít believe that the group have the right to beat up upon them to conform. But how to ensure mob rule, tyranny of the majority etc, well having thought about that dilemma the only way to ensure mob rule or the tyranny of the majority is by the means of governance.

Worth remembering my hero JS Mill though argued in favour individual rights & against the tyranny of the majority. But its also argued that Mill argued in favour of state invention in oneís life if required. Its kind pretty much that which Iíd argue government should stay out oneís personal liberty, but government should be there to ensure opportunity, fairness & equality. Too most libertarians what Iím saying right now is socialistic puke but libertarians misunderstand liberals. Liberals arenít trying to restrain people from succeeding like socialists theyíre trying create an environment so that individuals have the opportunity to succeed. Plus libertarians need to realise their their not the ones who have exclusive rights to the concept of liberty, others have a different perception of liberty. Somebody once said a libertarian views a man down a well as still able to have free move just they need make more effort, a liberal thinks thatís ridiculous & gives the man a helping hand.

Typically libertarian would legalize all guns & thatís it where as a liberal in favour of liberalizing gun ownership will probably think its best to have some form of regulation. Liberals are prepared to use the system or adapt the system to achieve their aims but many a libertarian just want to destroy the system & nothing short is a sell out. How many times have I heard a libertarian say to me why Ziggy donít you have the imagination to see a world without government? Well firstly because I donít want one, because secondly I believe government can do good & thirdly what does imagination have anything to it George Lucas has imagination but it doesnít mean Star Wars is reality. Yeah libertarians utopian daydreamers who if you donít agree with their vision then youíre a statist, a fascist or mentally ill. Recently on a libertarian discussion forum I saw a libertarian askedÖ

How Feel About Those Who Disagree With You?

1) Adolf Hitler.
2) Adolf Hitler.
3) Adolf Hitler.

That kind of says it all.

I was never really a libertarian as my website illustrates as libertarians donít generally campaign for betterment of environmentalism nor champion labor rights. I always tried to portray myself as a moderate libertarian but needless to say even as a moderate I was a fundamentalist. Iíve said that isnít it an irony that such an individualistic philosophy is so dogmatic & that dogma breeds fundamentalism & extremism. I wonder if many a libertarian doesnít have some form of autism being as they donít seem to understand that not everybody is a libertarian. Plus I wonder if they realize that thereís more to the world then solely an individualís own interest, take climate change for instance. Yeah climate change something which libertarians will probably bulk out for being a conspiracy & why is that? Its not because itís a conspiracy its because it means individuals will need to be making sacrifices to save the environment because if we donít then weíll have no fit environment to enjoy any kind of liberty in.

I was a libertarian fundamentalist & wasnít listening to either sense or truth. But its not Iím rejecting libertarians just ceasing to masquerade around as a libertarian. One of the truisms people kept pointing out to me was that being as Iím disabled & considering other problems Iíve suffered in my life if were not for the welfare state then Iíd be dead. Yeah I canít deny that in fact the government does a fairly good job here in Britain in helping disabled people & well itís not perfect as nothing ever is but its better then nothing or no garneted assistance.

Iíll admit Iíve said F**K LIBERTARIANISM one before only too go back on the sentiment but this time I really am rejecting libertarianism & waving goodbye too many a libertarians, embracing social-liberalism & liberals.

Ziggy

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/LiberalFAQ.htm
http://world.std.com/~mhuben/faq.html
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AntonLee

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Re: Bye, bye to masquerading as a libertarian
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2008, 06:27:53 AM »

that's right, because you can't be a libertarian AND support the environment.

except the most basic part is, you can support pretty much ANYTHING, as long as you're not going to force your views on others at the point of a gun.  I don't give two shits whether someone else is libertarian or not, because I sure the hell wasn't. . .and I changed because it's the ONLY THING THAT MAKES SENSE.

I support the environment, and I do it without using the bully government.  If you need the bully government to get your ideas across. . .then great, don't call yourself a libertarian.  Gracias.
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AntonLee

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Re: Bye, bye to masquerading as a libertarian
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2008, 06:29:49 AM »

basically, what your entire post comes down to is the last line of 1984. . .

"I love Big Brother"

see you in a month when you figure out that your liberal friends are no better than those evil libertarians
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Shara

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Re: Bye, bye to masquerading as a libertarian
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2008, 06:34:50 AM »

I just wanted to point out that social liberalism has worked out VERY well in small countries like Switzerland, because although the government is kind of big, it's probably not hulking like it is here in the USA and the UK.
It seems to me that the bigger a government gets, the more impersonal and uncaring it is.
So... I think in the long run, it's all about balance. But how can you force socialism/communism at the tip of a gun like that?
I mean, national healthcare has worked decently for California. But, I know several people that have moved from that system to a freer state because of their other government restrictions (High taxes, maybe they want to homeschooll their children without checking into CA state government every week). And, I know that most Swiss citizens are very happy with their government... .but the fact is, they're both tiny, and their citizens are free to move to another country or state if they don't like it.

Like I said, the bigger, the worse for the individual, although you have more clout when it comes to protection.

So, as far as you turning into a liberal, you're just another one helping them hold the gun into forcing communism. You might mean well, but please, in a country( collection of countries might be the proper term) Like the UK, please hold firm in the belief of the free market. I've worked for a PRIVATE charity before, and trust me, there are people out there to help those in severe need like you might have been, but forcing people to share at the tip of a gun is never right.

And, imagine, if we didn't have 30%  upwards our paychecks stolen for bogus causes, don't you think that we all collectively would give more to those in need?

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AntonLee

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Re: Bye, bye to masquerading as a libertarian
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2008, 06:40:34 AM »

I have doubts he ever was a libertarian. . .he threw a hissy fit a few months back, and disappeared.  Like the title says, he was only masquerading. . . there is no utopia he's found. . . he simply wants what he wants and if you don't like it then bobbies can come and arrest you.

and it wouldn't fucking matter.  Too bad, I used to like a lot of what he said.

he'll be back if he has any principles that don't include aggression against others.
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Shara

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Re: Bye, bye to masquerading as a libertarian
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2008, 06:49:03 AM »

I have doubts he ever was a libertarian. . .he threw a hissy fit a few months back, and disappeared.  Like the title says, he was only masquerading. . . there is no utopia he's found. . . he simply wants what he wants and if you don't like it then bobbies can come and arrest you.

and it wouldn't fucking matter.  Too bad, I used to like a lot of what he said.

he'll be back if he has any principles that don't include aggression against others.


I think that he might really be, and if he is in fact, then that's the last hope for the UK people, they're no longer their own countries, they're no longer their own citizens, just a massive, hulking United Kingdom.

Honestly, for one point, do you really think that if both the US and the UK continue to ad states and powers that this will all be peaceful?
Um... no.
We're not at war against each other, but our governments are on a small level: Who can get bigger faster. However, the bigger the government gets, the worse it treats it's citizens.
Gah, we're screwed either way, but I hope that Ziggy, one of our last hopes in the UK (which is CLEARLY more statist than we are here) hasn't given up on freedom for at LEAST his town, our his state notch in the UK.
If he has... then we'll hope that someone else out there is fighting for freedom.
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Cyro

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Re: Bye, bye to masquerading as a libertarian
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2008, 07:14:54 AM »

So... I think in the long run, it's all about balance. But how can you force socialism/communism at the tip of a gun like that?

With communism, you literally can't force it at the point of a gun. It's often misrepresented, but communism cannot exist on a mass scale, that's what socialism's for. Just look at the derivatives of the words: Socialism - Society. Communism - Community. Whilst Socialism effects collectivism over a society, something requiring force to accomplish, Communism is just collectivist communalism. It's basically an act of political segregation, no worse than the FSP.

Oh, and Ziggy, yep, you're a liberal, good luck with that. Just don't except me to like any social changes you wish to enforce on me.
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HOO-HAA

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Re: Bye, bye to masquerading as a libertarian
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2008, 09:00:53 AM »

And, imagine, if we didn't have 30%  upwards our paychecks stolen for bogus causes, don't you think that we all collectively would give more to those in need?

Not to mention private businesses and companies that decide to get a little bit of extra PR through sponsorship of charities. Sure, a lot of donations from businesses have been, traditionally, to do with tax etc. However, the whole PR thing is a huge selling point as well. I think it would become even more so in a free society.

they're no longer their own countries, they're no longer their own citizens, just a massive, hulking United Kingdom.

Well, actually there is significant devolution within the UK.

Scotland, as far as I know, has a very successful devolved government.

Here, in Northern Ireland, we also are at the early stages (stop, start, stop, start) of a devloved government. The politicians are still a bunch of assholes, but at least we're in a smaller government, so to speak... 

I always enjoy listening to Ziggy when he calls into the show. The man's got passion and energy. I wish him well, whatever he decides to call himself. 

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Harry Tuttle

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Re: Bye, bye to masquerading as a libertarian
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2008, 09:24:18 AM »

With communism, you literally can't force it at the point of a gun. It's often misrepresented, but communism cannot exist on a mass scale, that's what socialism's for. Just look at the derivatives of the words: Socialism - Society. Communism - Community. Whilst Socialism effects collectivism over a society, something requiring force to accomplish, Communism is just collectivist communalism. It's basically an act of political segregation, no worse than the FSP.

I accept that definition of communism, I just reject the idea that it could work on any but the most minute scale. It rarely even works within a nuclear family setting. You always have the natural tendency of humans to seek their own best interest first - not the interest of those around them. Now a rational person acting in his own self-interest will realize that you get your way by helping others around you. The problem is that communism is based upon what individuals need. This is hard to define. My natural tendency to go after what I desire takes care of me based upon my ability to prioritize my wants. This natural tendency in my neighbors will take care of their desires based upon their actions. There need be no central planning or organizing structure, yet order occurs. Some refer to this as the invisible hand.

Back to Ziggy. He has a good heart but he is confused. He thinks that somehow there can be a large government with the power to force people to act in the interest of others where the need it without infringing upon liberties. Two major problems with this (I'm sure there are more than two) are that:

1) Things that are not determined to be needs will obviously have to be sacrifice
2) Human nature dictates that if you give me tools and political power I will start to look for other ways to use them to my benefit. That means that every bureaucrat that you have given power over wealth redistribution had better be a REALLY REALLY TRUSTWORTHY PERSON.

It sounds like Ziggy should just forget about the term 'libertarian'. Obviously it is causing problems due to its many definitions. Better to think about the practical implications of central planning and wealth distribution.
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Shara

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Re: Bye, bye to masquerading as a libertarian
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2008, 09:46:08 AM »

I accept that definition of communism, I just reject the idea that it could work on any but the most minute scale.

I respect your opinion, but if you ask most Swissmen/women, you'll find that they're one of the happiest peoples in the world, although HIGHLY communistic. Although this is my only basis, and it's hardly scientific, it's why I could support small scale, completely voluntary communism.


However, hulking government is NEVER a good thing. Heck... neither is a hulking corporation of a job... ringing up things on three computers at Sears SUCKS! I just mentioned that to my military member husband yesterday after one of the computers crashed and a customer had to wait  30 minutes to PAY for their purchase because the computer takes 15 minutes to start back up (seriously, no reason for THAT!)...
Anyways, after my rant to him, he said "Why do you not see why I want to get out of the military so badly?" and basically explained that it's a big hulking system that doesn't work well on a personal level like DECENT job would....
So yah... I wish you well  Ziggy, but small groups governing a big group of people, even IF they promise to redistribute wealth never end well.
I hope you call back though! I really do enjoy your updates on at least ANY types of progress of Liberty (social OR economical) around the world :-)
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Cyro

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Re: Bye, bye to masquerading as a libertarian
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2008, 09:51:36 AM »

I accept that definition of communism, I just reject the idea that it could work on any but the most minute scale.

I respect your opinion, but if you ask most Swissmen/women, you'll find that they're one of the happiest peoples in the world, although HIGHLY communistic. Although this is my only basis, and it's hardly scientific, it's why I could support small scale, completely voluntary communism.


However, hulking government is NEVER a good thing. Heck... neither is a hulking corporation of a job... ringing up things on three computers at Sears SUCKS! I just mentioned that to my military member husband yesterday after one of the computers crashed and a customer had to wait  30 minutes to PAY for their purchase because the computer takes 15 minutes to start back up (seriously, no reason for THAT!)...
Anyways, after my rant to him, he said "Why do you not see why I want to get out of the military so badly?" and basically explained that it's a big hulking system that doesn't work well on a personal level like DECENT job would....
So yah... I wish you well  Ziggy, but small groups governing a big group of people, even IF they promise to redistribute wealth never end well.
I hope you call back though! I really do enjoy your updates on at least ANY types of progress of Liberty (social OR economical) around the world :-)

*sigh

No, Switzerland is not Communist, as Switzerland is a nation, not a commune. It's a socialist nation.
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Shara

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Re: Bye, bye to masquerading as a libertarian
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2008, 09:53:23 AM »

I accept that definition of communism, I just reject the idea that it could work on any but the most minute scale.

I respect your opinion, but if you ask most Swissmen/women, you'll find that they're one of the happiest peoples in the world, although HIGHLY communistic. Although this is my only basis, and it's hardly scientific, it's why I could support small scale, completely voluntary communism.


However, hulking government is NEVER a good thing. Heck... neither is a hulking corporation of a job... ringing up things on three computers at Sears SUCKS! I just mentioned that to my military member husband yesterday after one of the computers crashed and a customer had to wait  30 minutes to PAY for their purchase because the computer takes 15 minutes to start back up (seriously, no reason for THAT!)...
Anyways, after my rant to him, he said "Why do you not see why I want to get out of the military so badly?" and basically explained that it's a big hulking system that doesn't work well on a personal level like DECENT job would....
So yah... I wish you well  Ziggy, but small groups governing a big group of people, even IF they promise to redistribute wealth never end well.
I hope you call back though! I really do enjoy your updates on at least ANY types of progress of Liberty (social OR economical) around the world :-)

*sigh

No, Switzerland is not Communist, as Switzerland is a nation, not a commune. It's a socialist nation.

I know you explained it, and I've looked it up before, but communism vs. socialism seems largely the same to me. I can't honestly fathom the difference enough to get picky about wording.
Unless... Communism is completely voluntary and socialism is strictly enforced by a government... that would make sense? Is that right?
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Cyro

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Re: Bye, bye to masquerading as a libertarian
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2008, 09:56:35 AM »

Unless... Communism is completely voluntary and socialism is strictly enforced by a government... that would make sense? Is that right?

Bingo. The entire idea of a commune is that people are there voluntarily, as they want that life for themselves.
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Shara

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Re: Bye, bye to masquerading as a libertarian
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2008, 09:59:55 AM »

Unless... Communism is completely voluntary and socialism is strictly enforced by a government... that would make sense? Is that right?

Bingo. The entire idea of a commune is that people are there voluntarily, as they want that life for themselves.

Sweet, thanks... I promise to use the words correctly from now on :-D

I guess the confusion came when people started referring to the Red Russia and China as communistic, but technically they're not according to these defs.
Thanks for the clarification!
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YixilTesiphon

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Re: Bye, bye to masquerading as a libertarian
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2008, 10:20:54 AM »

Ziggy, nothing I've ever seen you write has made any sense.
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