The Free Talk Live BBS
Free Talk Live => General => Topic started by: Coconut on December 22, 2011, 11:26:49 PM
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http://7115dollars.com/ (http://7115dollars.com/)
Discuss.
Edit 02-06-12: This matter is resolved and the site is demolished.
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Just curious, not taking any side here, as its none of my concern.
What is posting this here supposed to accomplish? Is it to cause embarrassment, in hopes that it will help spur the payments along quicker? Do you believe he is unwilling to pay it back, or do you think he just doesn't have it on hand to pay back?
If it is your belief that he just doesn't have the cash, seems to me, the extra embarrassment doesn't really help to get your money back quicker.
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LULZ
dirty laundry is fun eh BJ?
Karma is a bitch aint it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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ah ha ha ha
The douchebag that can't help but talk shit about me is a deadbeat.
Compare that with the recent post regarding my fulfillment of my latest contract
https://www.facebook.com/groups/168942586498/10150516918041499/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/168942586498/10150516918041499/)
"Public Notice: Sovereign Curtis has successfully fulfilled his contract with me, in a timely fashion."
Eat a dick, deadbeat
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It's hard to pay bills when you sit around watching xtube all day calling people out in the drama thread and all...
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What is posting this here supposed to accomplish?
This is valuable information for anyone who might have contracted with Deadbeat Joe in the future.
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It's also a valuable lesson for anyone who does not already know that a guy who would borrow $5000 at 200% annual interest is not good credit risk.
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http://macgui.com/usenet/?group=2&start=2314&id=12369 (http://macgui.com/usenet/?group=2&start=2314&id=12369)
Well, he went to jail for theft once.
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Whoah, I just now found out from that page who you are Coconut. I never put two and two together lol, good to know.
Also, http://www.facebook.com/BonerJoe/posts/10151090223950298 (http://www.facebook.com/BonerJoe/posts/10151090223950298)
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Perhaps you should distance yourself from this, let someone else handle the collections. Charge BJ for that, doesnt seem fair that you should make yourself harass him over it.
BJ, if you cant get the money doing your ebay sales of toys/books or whatever, you should probably get a job quickly where you arent self employed. At least temporarily.
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Just curious, not taking any side here, as its none of my concern.
What is posting this here supposed to accomplish? Is it to cause embarrassment, in hopes that it will help spur the payments along quicker? Do you believe he is unwilling to pay it back, or do you think he just doesn't have it on hand to pay back?
If it is your belief that he just doesn't have the cash, seems to me, the extra embarrassment doesn't really help to get your money back quicker.
Because there is not a public reputation site for the NH activist community. I have been beyond reasonable regarding timetable and requirements for what I need paid to me (To the extent of suggesting we set the payment table lower than he wanted, so it would be easier to keep up on), and it hasn't even come close. I don't know how much money he has, but regardless, because of the scattered pattern of payments, I basically have to assume I won't have it. Maybe the public exposure will cause it to be paid down quicker. I don't know.
It's also a valuable lesson for anyone who does not already know that a guy who would borrow $5000 at 200% annual interest is not good credit risk.
This is clearly also true, and I have to own it.
Perhaps you should distance yourself from this, let someone else handle the collections. Charge BJ for that, doesnt seem fair that you should make yourself harass him over it.
I would not be sure how to begin this process, or how it would help, besides being able to wash my hands from it (which means I just assume my money is gone until I hear otherwise?). If someone actually doesn't have my money, I could charge him a million dollars and it wouldn't matter.
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http://macgui.com/usenet/?group=2&start=2314&id=12369 (http://macgui.com/usenet/?group=2&start=2314&id=12369)
Well, he went to jail for theft once.
No, I never went to jail. But I was charged with Scheme to Defraud (a felony), was on probation for 3 years, and paid restitution.
It wouldn't be fair to call this theft, as I intend to repay every cent. I am just on default on the terms.
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It wouldn't be fair to call this theft, as I intend to repay every cent. I am just on default on the terms.
You were supposed to pay X on Y but didn't. You might as well have taken X from that person on that date.
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Perhaps you should distance yourself from this, let someone else handle the collections. Charge BJ for that, doesnt seem fair that you should make yourself harass him over it.
I don't think it has been harassment, but I think the website is going a little over the top. I made the post to my Facebook page because I wanted to own the situation and take responsibility for it before Nick had to make his own post that was inevitably coming. I had no idea of the existence of a website at that time, but it's not my five grand plus interest, so I don't really have any say in what he does to try and collect it.
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It wouldn't be fair to call this theft, as I intend to repay every cent. I am just on default on the terms.
You were supposed to pay X on Y but didn't. You might as well have taken X from that person on that date.
Fine, you're right, I stole it. Never paid him back anything, stayed in Florida, been ignoring his Skype messages, and have publicly refused to acqnowledge the debt or pay it, even though I have money to buy hookers and play blackjack. :roll:
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http://macgui.com/usenet/?group=2&start=2314&id=12369 (http://macgui.com/usenet/?group=2&start=2314&id=12369)
Well, he went to jail for theft once.
No, I never went to jail. But I was charged with Scheme to Defraud (a felony), was on probation for 3 years, and paid restitution.
It wouldn't be fair to call this theft, as I intend to repay every cent. I am just on default on the terms.
My mistake then.
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I intend to repay every cent. I am just on default on the terms.
If I were the creditor, this would be a most welcome thing to hear.
It seems to me, a good creditor would want to work with the debtor to find mutually agreeable terms. Perhaps a reasonable long-term interest rate and, possibly, an understanding with any employer(s) and/or landlord(s) the debtor may have. At least that way the creditor gets a little pocket money on a continuing basis.
I've lent money before. A short-term bridging loan to a casual friend, independent businessperson, and sometime small-jobs worker-around-the-house. And had that loan go unpaid. And gotten Radio Silence from the debtor. And taken the trouble to file with the court, take it before a judge, and get a Judgement.
And then have the debtor file for bankruptcy. There's not much to scavenge. Look at what NH says are protected from default:
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/lii/511/511-mrg.htm (http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/lii/511/511-mrg.htm)
511:2 Exemptions. – The following goods and property are exempted from attachment and execution:
I. The wearing apparel necessary for the use of the debtor and the debtor's family.
II. Comfortable beds, bedsteads and bedding necessary for the debtor, the debtor's spouse and children.
III. Household furniture to the value of $3,500.
IV. One cook stove, one heating stove and one refrigerator and necessary utensils belonging to the same.
V. One sewing machine, kept for use by the debtor or the debtor's family.
VI. Provisions and fuel to the value of $400.
VII. The uniform, arms and equipments of every officer and private in the militia.
VIII. The Bibles, school books and library of any debtor, used by the debtor or the debtor's family, to the value of $800.
IX. Tools of the debtor's occupation to the value of $5,000.
X. One hog and one pig, and the pork of the same when slaughtered.
XI. Six sheep and the fleeces of the same.
XII. One cow; a yoke of oxen or a horse, when required for farming or teaming purposes or other actual use; and hay not exceeding 4 tons.
XIII. Domestic fowls not exceeding $300 in value.
XIV. The debtor's interest in one pew in any meetinghouse in which the debtor or the debtor's family usually worship.
XV. The debtor's interest in one lot or right of burial in any cemetery.
XVI. One automobile to the value of $4,000.
XVII. Jewelry owned by the debtor or the debtor's family to the value of $500.
XVIII. The debtor's interest in any property, not to exceed $1,000 in value, plus up to $7,000 of any unused amount of the exemptions provided under paragraphs III, VI, VIII, IX, XVI, and XVII of this section.
XIX. Subject to the Uniform Fraudulent Transfer Act, RSA 545-A, any interest in a retirement plan
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I intend to repay every cent. I am just on default on the terms.
If I were the creditor, this would be a most welcome thing to hear.
Of course it's nice to hear, and yes, the situation could be worse and far more hostile. The following are also nice things to hear: "I'll have $2500 for you when I get to NH." "You'll have $400 by Wednesday at the latest." "I plan to be caught up in payments by next week"
Until I start seeing evidence that plans and promises result in action, we have an issue. I really don't know if there is a "plan", or if there is just the hope that things will magically work out by xyz date.
It seems to me, a good creditor would want to work with the debtor to find mutually agreeable terms. Perhaps a reasonable long-term interest rate and, possibly, an understanding with any employer(s) and/or landlord(s) the debtor may have. At least that way the creditor gets a little pocket money on a continuing basis.
This would also be nice, and was tried to an extent, as you saw. Although I'm not sure what understanding I could come to with the debtor's landlord, besides making him aware of the debt.
Until there's some kind of pattern of payments, I have to act like the money will never be here, which is a frustrating way to plan my finances. No, I'm not waiting on Jay's next check so I can afford a salad, but still.
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I think I'd start with the title to his rig since he already offered....
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Next ask about the money he is planning on spending on the fancy ass security camera system. Then ask about what is worth so much that he needs a fancy ass security camera system.
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I don't plan on spending money on it right now. And I have nothing really to secure, but after being broken into at 4AM during a home invasion robbery (in which my wallet was stolen and absolutely contributed to not being able to stick the payment agreement), and the fact that I live in the ghetto of Manchester, it's been an idea on my mind that I wanted some input on.
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I'm not sure what understanding I could come to with the debtor's landlord, besides making him aware of the debt.
1) the landlord can inform you if the debtor vacates
2) the landlord may want to alter the debtor's rental terms, or cancel the rental if the landlord believes the debtor will be unable to service the debt and keep up on rent payments. If that's the case, the debtor needs to find more modest accommodations, and the resulting savings go to the creditor.
Until there's some kind of pattern of payments, I have to act like the money will never be here
If you ever want to get paid, you need to start acting as a responsible creditor.
Debtors who get into trouble need someone to take over their financial decision-making. There is a loss of freedom that comes with debt.
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A self-chosen interest rate of 200% is crazy.
Holding someone to that crazy amount is a little off if ya ask me, but I understand where the lender is comin from.
Good luck to both parties.
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I don't plan on spending money on it right now. And I have nothing really to secure, but after being broken into at 4AM during a home invasion robbery (in which my wallet was stolen and absolutely contributed to not being able to stick the payment agreement), and the fact that I live in the ghetto of Manchester, it's been an idea on my mind that I wanted some input on.
I used to live in an average part of urban west TN (far worse than any part of NH.) I kept my bedroom door locked when I slept, had a couple weapons by my bed and had a big heavy table blocking the one window in my room. Of course, I never went to bed or even left the house unless my window was shut and locked. I tried to park my car right in front of my window and made sure that nothing of value was ever visible if someone looked into my vehicle.
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Hmpf.
I don't see what living in the ghetto has to do with any of this.
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Hmpf.
I don't see what living in the ghetto has to do with any of this.
Part of the reason he doesn't have the money to pay is because he was robbed. If he wasn't robbed, things would be different.
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Yes. However, individuals are robbed everywhere so it's hardly worth mentioning that it took place in a challenged neighborhood.
I tire of this hate speech.
(No, I am not trolling I am poking fun.)
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Hmpf.
I don't see what living in the ghetto has to do with any of this.
I pretty much live in the same "ghetto", no one fucks with my shit.
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I've always wondered who lives in the Manchester ghettos.
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Any agreement is fine as long as both parties intend to honor it. If you think you're going to appeal to the state, I don't see you having any luck with 200% interest rate. I'd suggest adjusting the terms on whatever is owed to you, in exchange for some sort of additional security. Perhaps interest only payments (at a very different rate) with 18 month balloon would give him enough time to get it in order, and protect the principle for you.
One option that I hesitate to recommend, but I've seen used in a particularly harsh situation, is getting a judgement, and attaching it to a pet. I don't know how I feel about this, and I think I'd only consider doing it if I felt considerably wronged, but it has resulted in motivation where all else failed, when the pet was taken away. Obviously, if the person doesn't care for their pet, this won't inspire them much.
If you work together, there is almost certainly some other arrangement that can be made to satisfy the debt.
Good luck!
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For the record, I've YET to see a 'ghetto' in New Hampshire.
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ITS DOCUMENTED FACT that this is the highest crime area of the state. Compared to everywhere else in NH, it's the fucking ghetto. I mean, I live one block away from the jail...
Why are we having this conversation? My wallet was stolen, I called where I live a "ghetto" as a cute name. You and Robin want to nitpick semantics as a tag team. OK.
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Do you want me to evict Jay?
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For the record, I've YET to see a 'ghetto' in New Hampshire.
The housing in downtown Manchester... I've seen those houses. Maybe you can't call them a 'ghetto' but you could certainly call a huge number of areas 'shitholes'.
I went into houses there. They looked like a house on the border between Detroit and Dearborn. Old, ratty, bad plumbing, dry rotted wood, shitty postage stamp yards, the woiks.
Looks like and Ann Arbor that went to seed.
Not that I have any idea about the specifics of where Jay is staying.
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I was just thinking in the car on the way home that this website and forum post is not helping me one bit in repaying this debt. I pretty much wasted the past 24 hours feeling I need to defend myself over everyone's critiques. Which meant me sitting at the computer and doing nothing productive besides feeding my cat and cooking. I thought I had this handled in a responsible manner when I made my own Facebook post about it, and this has interrupted that process.
I need to step away from the forum for a bit. I just thought I'd let you know why I won't be replying.
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ITS DOCUMENTED FACT that this is the highest crime area of the state.
Its all relative. There is absolutely no where in NH that compares to the ghettos in Wilmington, NC, which is nothing compared to so many other areas.
I was just thinking in the car on the way home that this website and forum post is not helping me one bit in repaying this debt. I pretty much wasted the past 24 hours feeling I need to defend myself over everyone's critiques.
Now you understand why I didn't respond to your stolen food bullshit.
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For the record, I've YET to see a 'ghetto' in New Hampshire.
The housing in downtown Manchester... I've seen those houses. Maybe you can't call them a 'ghetto' but you could certainly call a huge number of areas 'shitholes'.
I went into houses there. They looked like a house on the border between Detroit and Dearborn. Old, ratty, bad plumbing, dry rotted wood, shitty postage stamp yards, the woiks.
Looks like and Ann Arbor that went to seed.
Not that I have any idea about the specifics of where Jay is staying.
So not as bad as the john r part of detroit where "the roof has a new tarp covering it, bought in 2010" is considered a property feature?
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So not as bad as the john r part of detroit where "the roof has a new tarp covering it, bought in 2010" is considered a property feature?
Naw, what I'm describing is say, the area just East of Fairlane mall.
For a Michigander, I'd specifically tell them that Manchester is like being just North of Michigan Avenue between Greefield and Schaefer. Just shitty old tract housing and dudes wearing too much gold and sitting on the hoods of their 1988 Z-Rock Cameros listening to WRIF.
The only difference is that in Manchester it's a white guy rather than a middle eastern dude. And maybe less gold.
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So not as bad as the john r part of detroit where "the roof has a new tarp covering it, bought in 2010" is considered a property feature?
Naw, what I'm describing is say, the area just East of Fairlane mall.
For a Michigander, I'd specifically tell them that Manchester is like being just North of Michigan Avenue between Greefield and Schaefer. Just shitty old tract housing and dudes wearing too much gold and sitting on the hoods of their 1988 Z-Rock Cameros listening to WRIF.
The only difference is that in Manchester it's a white guy rather than a middle eastern dude. And maybe less gold.
In NH, we bury our gold in the back yard, yo.
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For a Michigander, I'd specifically tell them that Manchester is like being just North of Michigan Avenue between Greefield and Schaefer. Just shitty old tract housing and dudes wearing too much gold and sitting on the hoods of their 1988 Z-Rock Cameros listening to WRIF.
The only difference is that in Manchester it's a white guy rather than a middle eastern dude. And maybe less gold.
Reminds me of watching two MD interns arguing in the parking lot at DMC sinai grace, both middle eastern/brown/whatever and one called the other a 'sand guido'. The sensitivity training made me want to be offended but it was so hard to overcome my laughter. Not sure if they were actually pissed at each other or just messing around.
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I was just thinking in the car on the way home that this website and forum post is not helping me one bit in repaying this debt. I pretty much wasted the past 24 hours feeling I need to defend myself over everyone's critiques. Which meant me sitting at the computer and doing nothing productive besides feeding my cat and cooking. I thought I had this handled in a responsible manner when I made my own Facebook post about it, and this has interrupted that process.
I need to step away from the forum for a bit. I just thought I'd let you know why I won't be replying.
Well yeah. The website and post is a consequence of failing to uphold 2 contracts. I didn't do it because i thought you needed more motivation. I still believe you are sincere in your desire to repay.
I knew it would be a distraction, but you already know that all manner of online interaction is a distraction (as it is to me. I turn off my internet when i need to meet certain deadlines that are not network dependant). The point is, despite me knowing this would further complicate the issue, I believe if it were anyone else, you would advocate for transparency and responsibility.
Thank you for posting first, but it didnt tell the entire story. If people, including you, think I'm wrong for posting, that's the risk I took.
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In NH, we bury our gold in the back yard, yo.
Groovy. Now I just gotta visit your place.
At night.
With a spade.
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In NH, we bury our gold in the back yard, yo.
Groovy. Now I just gotta visit your place.
At night.
With a spade.
Just a guess, but that might be a good way to find someone else with a spade...when you wake up.
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Just a guess, but that might be a good way to find someone else with a spade...when you wake up.
I have the strong suspicion that with Osborne:
1) it wouldn't be a spade
2) you wouldn't wake up
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Have you tried Sakal CAI?
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Just a guess, but that might be a good way to find someone else with a spade...when you wake up.
I have the strong suspicion that with Osborne:
1) it wouldn't be a spade
2) you wouldn't wake up
That wouldn't be as cartoon-style humorous. ;-)
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Have you tried Sakal CAI?
lol
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Do you want me to evict Jay?
Still no answer.
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Lending to the Borrower from Hell: Debt and Default in the Age of Philip II by Drelichman and Voth.
http://www.pse.ens.fr/seminaire/mdrelichman_0805.pdf (http://www.pse.ens.fr/seminaire/mdrelichman_0805.pdf)
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Do you want me to evict Jay?
Still no answer.
I have private messaged Dale. I didn't realize he was frustrated with my non-answer.
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I have private messaged Dale.
You have?
Well, yes, I was a little frustrated because you did mention Jay's landlord and you know that's me.
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Since I have temporarily broken my silence, I'll mention that this thread does several negative things.
I have never seen such awesome proof for how bad Libpar can be, I hope no statist runs into this clusterfuck.
Here they have proof that free people would sign stupid contracts and collections would be difficult. I am waiting for some dipshit to recommend debtor's prisons to complete it all.
Nick, if you are going to be a loanshark, someone is going to renege eventually, especially with the interest you are taking.
Sakal CAI, or some arbitrator was the right answer.
Not a libertarian message board famous for its troll and asshole population, although I am surprised how civil everyone has been.
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Nick, if you are going to be a loanshark, someone is going to renege eventually, especially with the interest you are taking.
If I were a real loanshark, I'd have the infrastructure and experience to deal with this situation. Obviously I'm not. I do not have outstanding contracted loans with other people.
I expected people to take the interest issue and turn me into the bad guy over it - but it's unfounded. First of all, this isn't a situation where someone has paid back all or most of a principal, and it's just the "juice" (That's what real loan sharks call it, right?) left over. The interest is of secondary concern to me at the moment. Let me requote here something I said on facebook:
" The original agreement, (which again, was of Jay's drafting. I'm not going to suggest someone pay me less than he wants to), has already been renegotiated.
I've never been opposed to having whatever conversation needs to happen to get paid. The question on whether I would be willing to rerenegotiate and write off some of the interest amount is a conversation worth having once $4990 is paid back. That is the main issue currently."
Second, as I have said before, I did not charge, suggest, demand, etc, the interest rate. In the same vein, I was not doing a favor for a friend either. I am not going to counter someone's contract offer with another offer more in his favor - it doesn't make sense.
Sakal CAI, or some arbitrator was the right answer.
There is no dispute for an arbitrator to sort out. Nobody is claiming this money isn't owed.
I'd consider selling the debt to Sakal or anyone else, but some bit of research doesn't lend itself to being an easy, or possible, process.
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I, for one, don't blame you. Just trying to give a laymans POV of the thread. Surely someone would lend the debtor such a small sum at a reasonable interest to pay you the principle. You cut your losses, the debtor loses a bit of rep (probably not to great at this point anyway) and then someone who does have the infrastructure to deal with it, will.
I am not just talking out my ass. I have been in this situation. The times I cut my losses and just took it as a learning experience caused me the least problems in the long term.
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When 500 people each owe you $100, you use a collection agency. When one person owes you $50k, you take care of it yourself.
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I don't see what the interest rate has to do with this situation. Yes, it was very high, but so what?
Kinda seems like a few posters have attempted to blame the victim. Maybe that wasn't their intent, but that is how I perceived it. Sounded like, "Well what did you expect would happen going out dressed like that?"
Also, I think the lender is doing the rest of us a service by pointing out that there is a person who failed to return property. That way, others may be less likely to lend anything to this person in the future.
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When 500 people each owe you $100, you use a collection agency. When one person owes you $50k, you take care of it yourself.
Why? and How? If you don't mind, I really have wondered about this sort of thing, and I thought you were closer to the answer then me.
I don't see what the interest rate has to do with this situation. Yes, it was very high, but so what?
Kinda seems like a few posters have attempted to blame the victim. Maybe that wasn't their intent, but that is how I perceived it. Sounded like, "Well what did you expect would happen going out dressed like that?"
Also, I think the lender is doing the rest of us a service by pointing out that there is a person who failed to return property. That way, others may be less likely to lend anything to this person in the future.
My point is that a statist reading this and seeing two libertarians agreeing to a 200% APR loan and no one pointing out how outrageous that is would have a pretty good argument for a government to protect us all.
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When 500 people each owe you $100, you use a collection agency. When one person owes you $50k, you take care of it yourself.
Why? and How? If you don't mind, I really have wondered about this sort of thing, and I thought you were closer to the answer then me.
I don't see what the interest rate has to do with this situation. Yes, it was very high, but so what?
Kinda seems like a few posters have attempted to blame the victim. Maybe that wasn't their intent, but that is how I perceived it. Sounded like, "Well what did you expect would happen going out dressed like that?"
Also, I think the lender is doing the rest of us a service by pointing out that there is a person who failed to return property. That way, others may be less likely to lend anything to this person in the future.
My point is that a statist reading this and seeing two libertarians agreeing to a 200% APR loan and no one pointing out how outrageous that is would have a pretty good argument for a government to protect us all.
The person who TOOK OUT the loan isn't complaining. The person who TOOK OUT the loan set the terms. Doesn't "look bad" as far as I'm concerned.
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When 500 people each owe you $100, you use a collection agency. When one person owes you $50k, you take care of it yourself.
Why? and How? If you don't mind, I really have wondered about this sort of thing, and I thought you were closer to the answer then me.
Collection agencies face mountains of legal barriers that you as the creditor do not have. We have only very specific things that we can say to only very specific people. The only advantage we have is the technology to locate and contact massive numbers of people at very low cost. Just as an example, if I were to post a message on Coconut's behalf such as he posted for himself, I would be doing time. The closest thing we can do would be to report to the credit bureaus, and anyone can do that for themself.
If you are willing to use legal violence, you can always get a judgment through the court system and then file to garnish wages or place property leins. Don't even need an attorney for that.
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I guess I wanted to have the "How in a free society" answer. What I got was the real world one. (I am not complaining, I feel a little smarter having read your post, so thank you)
I don't think Coconut could use legal violence because the loan at that agreed interest from a non licenced lender is illegal isn't it?
WTFK, I will reserve the right to call out people who take deeply one sided deals. Whether the person on the raw side is someone who enjoys being a pain in my ass or my grandmother, who could never say no to any fucking conartist who knocked on her door. If people didn't, people who made a living getting people to sign bad contracts would be a very real danger in Libpar.
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You can say whatever the fuck you want to, and I can disagree with you. How about that?
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Absolutely sir.
Everyone else thinks grifters and loansharks should have free rein to suckering ignorant or desperate people into nasty contracts?
Once libpar is established, I can put out a bid for the manufacture of the security doors on that debtors prison we will need.
Silver lining and all that.
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Once libpar is established, I can put out a bid for the manufacture of the security doors on that debtors prison we will need.
Silver lining and all that.
Oh good, a new word has entered the lexicon of the ridiculous.
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I don't think this deal is "one sided" against the borrower. He didn't even pay back the principle.
And there are a lot of people who think that ANY level of interest is immoral. We can't just pick a number and claim that all loans should be x apr or less.
The only fair interest rate is the one decided on by the lender and borrower.
The fact that some statists will whine about "one sided deals" just shows their economic ignorance. There will always be those who see exploitation in every transaction. If there is any exploitation here, it is due to the default not the interest rate.
PS Would you see this deal as "one sided" or exploitative, if the lender loaned the money at 0%? Probably not. We'd all say, "Oh how nice of Coconut to help out a friend." Not, "OMG! Coconut is being EXPLOITED! AHHHHH!"
Just shows the inherent bias many of us have against lenders.
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Absolutely sir.
Everyone else thinks grifters and loansharks should have free rein to suckering ignorant or desperate people into nasty contracts?
Once libpar is established, I can put out a bid for the manufacture of the security doors on that debtors prison we will need.
Silver lining and all that.
Walter Block: Defending the Undefendable. Read it.
Only the two people participating in a transaction get to decide if the transaction should take place.
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My experience with dishonest, yet "legal" dealers makes me a bit watchful of contract happy devils. I am not arguing against Coconut, what I am doing is arguing for is a reputation check and balance on both sides of a contract. I don't think having full unquestioning respect for any signed contract is a good idea. To be honest I have trouble getting through those licence agreements on the net. I can have agreed to give up my soul for all I know.
I would be more comfortable with one overseen from a third party arbitrator, if I was looking at a contract between two individuals.
I have no desire to live in a society where the biggest prick will just rise to the top through cleverly contracted graft.
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My experience with dishonest, yet "legal" dealers makes me a bit watchful of contract happy devils. I am not arguing against Coconut, what I am doing is arguing for is a reputation check and balance on both sides of a contract. I don't think having full unquestioning respect for any signed contract is a good idea. To be honest I have trouble getting through those licence agreements on the net. I can have agreed to give up my soul for all I know.
I would be more comfortable with one overseen from a third party arbitrator, if I was looking at a contract between two individuals.
I have no desire to live in a society where the biggest prick will just rise to the top through cleverly contracted graft.
You don't think the biggest prick will lose most of his business when everyone finds out he's the biggest prick?
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Of course not. He will go crazy with unchecked power just like almost everyone else does. Get the hired guns, game over.
Human greed is alive and well. Contracts need a third party validation or we will have to have once a decade rich people hunts.
http://mises.org/books/defending.pdf (http://mises.org/books/defending.pdf)
WTFK's reading assignment.
Non violent pimps. That is pretty funny.
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I see a couple of problems here. It doesn't seem as if the parties here had designated an arbiter in case of a fallout. In the contract, it should have been written that "by x time, if the money had not yet been paid back, then the case goes in front of so-and-so third party, with <person> paying for it."
Another thing here is that not all contracts can or should be legally binding. Would you argue that if Coconut could take a pound of flesh from BonerJoe if he defaulted? But but they agreed to it.................... Yeah fucking right.
I think a contract should not be legally binding if it the case that it was written with the intent that the borrower could not understand the terms.
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I posted something here I think about that interest rate I think.. in case I wasn't super clear - I don't blame Coconut whatsoever. BJ named the rate.
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Coconut expressed his concerns about non-payment and Bonerjoe was up front and clearly expressed Intent To Pay in a forthright and honest and open way.
Sometimes people don't have the money they owe. Good people pay it when they can and make reparations for the additional strain put onto the debt owner. Bad people usually skate town or otherwise disappear. So far Bonerjoe has been behaving in a manner consistent with the first type of person.
Bummer for Coconut to not have his money, of course, but what more can ya do? S'not like the debt is being denied. Dude just doesn't have the scratch.
I don't see the controversy with any of this.
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That is a interesting point.
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BJ borrowed $10,000. So far he has only paid $7885 back.
Wait... he's paid back nearly 80% of the principal? And he says he's trying to make good on the remainder of the principal-plus-renegotiated-interest?
From OT I'd have thought this was a total-default situation.
It's not.
Seems to me it's a very manageable situation.
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What the fuck would a "third party arbitrator" do for these guys?
Arbitrators help settle disputes and there is no dispute.
And what is this borrower didn't understand the terms of the contract nonsense? Hmmmm You borrow $5k (making up numbers) today and you pay back $7.5k in 120 days. How much clearer could this have been?
"Oh, but you don't see that this is a bad deal for the borrower. He's being EXPLOITED! He needs a third party to run his financial affairs because he's TOO FUCKING DUMB to live his own life."
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What the fuck would a "third party arbitrator" do for these guys?
Arbitrators help settle disputes and there is no dispute.
And what is this borrower didn't understand the terms of the contract nonsense? Hmmmm You borrow $5k (making up numbers) today and you pay back $7.5k in 120 days. How much clearer could this have been?
"Oh, but you don't see that this is a bad deal for the borrower. He's being EXPLOITED! He needs a third party to run his financial affairs because he's TOO FUCKING DUMB to live his own life."
Negotiate a timeline for repayment.
You didn't seem to understand the rest of what I said.
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Negotiate a timeline for repayment.
You didn't seem to understand the rest of what I said.
I'm a moron. But I still don't think there is anything an arbitrator could do. The lender has offered many times to do that very same thing.
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There is nothing our discussing this can really do. BJ just needs to pay it is all, and he knows that.
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Negotiate a timeline for repayment.
You didn't seem to understand the rest of what I said.
I'm a moron. But I still don't think there is anything an arbitrator could do. The lender has offered many times to do that very same thing.
No argument there. I think BJ and Coconut would have a advantage with third party help. As it stands I would be hesitant to do business with either one. They are trying to be good little voluntariest, but the deal was bad. Period. A third party might have pointed out this. My visions of Libpar did not include broken thumbs and debtors prisons, with used car salesmen and loan sharks filling them up.
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No argument there. I think BJ and Coconut would have a advantage with third party help. As it stands I would be hesitant to do business with either one. They are trying to be good little voluntariest, but the deal was bad. Period. A third party might have pointed out this. My visions of Libpar did not include broken thumbs and debtors prisons, with used car salesmen and loan sharks filling them up.
Have you been using bath salts again? Where are the broken thumbs an debtors prisons, here? One guy stole someone else's property and then the victim attempted to damage his reputation by reporting it to the community. Coconut didn't do anything wrong.
And good god, high interest rates serve as a very important means for poor/low credit borrowers. Someone else previously told you to read Walter Block's chapter on this subject and I suggest you do the same. Then read something on subjective preferences. I think Bob Murphy's new book is a good start.
The short version of this topic is that when high interest rates are gotten rid of through laws or other means, the rich benefit most. At any one point in time, there is a certain supply of loanable funds. And every lender wants to be paid back. So how do poor people get loans when the rich are willing to borrow money? They add incentive by agreeing to higher interest rates. When high interest rates go away, so does the incentive to loan to risky borrowers. This will increase the supply of loanable funds to the wealthy. And guess what? Now that the poor can't borrow money, the rich, with an increased supply of loanable funds, will get an even lower interest rate.
So who are you serving by railing against high interest rates? Think about it. High interest rates, in fact, are just as important to risky borrowers as low wages are to those with low productivity.
But all of this aside, the borrower didn't even pay back the principle. He would have failed to repay this loan at any (positive) interest rate.
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I would really like to see a impressively good solution to this problem, that would look good to some outsider who stumbles on the thread.
That defending the indefensible loses credibility with the pimp chapter. Author obviously never met a pimp. Private security or a call agency aren't pimps.
I am trying to point out the point of view of a statist, and you guys make a great argument for people needing government protection.
But garshen that "Bath salts" comment was awful clever.
"We need to have 'you-name-it' interest rates on contracts written on greasy spoon napkins so that the rich and connected can loan money at a cheap rate and loan it out at ridicules ones so the poor can lift themselves out of poverty or get their kneecaps cracked, or better yet we will bring back debtors prisons so the bread winners can rot in prison while the family whores out the children. * yeah.... vote Ron Paul."
That fucking book is even more subtile. Shows a cartoon of a banker throwing people with cement shoes off a loading dock, joking about a economic downturn.
I am merely a fellow traveller saying contracts should be looked at and notarised by a third party. At least I plan to operate that way at this point. This thread has not built my trust for libertarians up at all.
* Start of Pirates of Savanna.
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Of course not. He will go crazy with unchecked power just like almost everyone else does. Get the hired guns, game over.
Human greed is alive and well. Contracts need a third party validation or we will have to have once a decade rich people hunts.
You don't seem to have strengthened your argument that the "biggest prick" will just rise to the top through cleverly contracted graft. In fact, you omitted the whole mechanism by which it will take place when there's not one authority to bribe.
http://mises.org/books/defending.pdf (http://mises.org/books/defending.pdf)
WTFK's reading assignment.
Non violent pimps. That is pretty funny.
I don't see why...it certainly isn't the stereotype, but to call it funny tilts your goofy hand in this discussion.
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Who cares if some "outsiders" don't approve of the terms of this loan? Its none of their business. End of story. A fundamental difference that sets libertarian's apart is the fact that we believe people should be free to make dumb decisions.
Lots of statists think cannabis shouldn't be legal because its stupid to smoke dope. And we don't want to offend them, right? So lets all stop writing about cannabis legalization on the web due to the fear that it may push others to lose "trust" in libertarianism.
And don't forget that some "statist outsiders" absolutely HATE gay people and don't approve of gay marriage contracts. Should we not stand up for the right of gay people to get married? "Well, of course we should stand up for gay rights and pot smokers, Tom. But what we cannot stand for is high interest rates! You see, gays and wake and bakers are smart enough to make decisions, but the rest of us need a fucking nanny to look over our shoulders."
And why should all contracts have to certified by a third party? If I go to the grocery store and buy a potato, do I need some third party person there to make sure that I'm not over paying? Really, do I? Or what if I bought a pack of cigarettes? Do I need some third party to tell me that they're bad for my health?
Your fear that others will make the wrong decision given the freedom to do so reminds of a Huffington Post (I think) article I read a while back. The author claimed that Ron Paul was literally like a "crack dealer" when he proposed allowing young people to opt out of social security. Guess what? His reasoning was the same as yours.....he fears that people will make the "wrong" decision and not save for their retirement, just like you fear that borrowers will make the wrong decision and agree to high interest rates.
Back to the original transaction......This loan couldn't have been more simple. Borrow "x" dollars, pay back "y" dollars on this date. Do you think Boner Joe is a total moron who couldn't understand those terms? If so, then perhaps you should offer to run Joe's life for him. Just make sure you get the contract looked at and notarized by a third party, of course.
And what is this, "you guys make a great argument for people needing government protection." How am I making an argument in favor of government? Is it because of my view that people should be able to make their own decisions even if other people think they are stupid? To be honest, if you can't handle the thought of people making piss poor decisions in life, then maybe you should consider another ethical/political philosophy.
I hope you stay here, though. The statists have plenty of nannies attempting to control my life already.
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I couldn't stand by and watch people be ruined.
That is fine however.
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I couldn't stand by and watch people be ruined.
That is fine however.
Funny how you think its the borrower, not the unpaid lender, who is being ruined.
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I couldn't stand by and watch people be ruined.
That is fine however.
Funny how you think its the borrower, not the unpaid lender, who is being ruined.
What if BJ was threatened with photoshopped pics of him engaging in pedophilia? Would that be ok? That would ruin his reputation.
My problem is that there was not a designated third party to deal with this. Coconut has to do it himself, which may or may not be appropriate. It sure is inefficient.
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I see a need for a third party as well. That is all I am saying.
This is mainly a "note to self" when dealing with other liberty people.
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While a third party would be beneficial in some ways, I dont really see a need for it.
This situation is a perfect example of how free thinking individuals can learn from an unregulated free market and use the experience to shape their future actions. Both sides might be a bit more cautious in the future when entering a loan agreement. In my opinion, this is the best way to learn a lesson. Eventually, Cocount will get his cash back and BJ might be a little more cautious when borrowing money with high interest rates.
This knowledge is worth its weight in gold and required NO third party or regulation to attain it. Imagine if the average person had this mindset of caution when entering a loan agreement. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac would have never happened in the first place because both parties would already have this mindset of REAL risk in mind before entering into the deal.
Its the perfect system. Totally organic, maaaaan. *puff, pass*
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I learned a lot as well. I had just hoped I wouldn't need to watch my loved ones so closely in a free society. Not a problem really, just like the arbitrator system better.
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Brother Ali - Freedom Ain't Free (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UzErJnT-QY#)
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It sure isn't. When I think of giving "businessmen" free rein to do what they want I think of this article.
http://www.cracked.com/article/89_the-6-most-horrific-bosses-all-time/ (http://www.cracked.com/article/89_the-6-most-horrific-bosses-all-time/)
And think they should at least be afraid of vengeful family members or whatnot.
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If "businessmen" are all going to be bad, why wouldn't third parties be bad? They have the same incentives.
If you have a bad boss, quit.
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If "businessmen" are all going to be bad, why wouldn't third parties be bad? They have the same incentives.
If you have a bad boss, quit.
You pick the third party arbiter at some point before the contract is signed. There will be agreement at some point then.
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Someone on Facebook proposed this as a set of Occupy Green Bay demands:
-Cancellation of all debts.
-Recognition of labor as the sole source of social value and the right of workers to redress their employers for expropriation of surplus-value/profit.
-Prohibition of lending money at interest.
-Establishment of standardized forms of accounting for all enterprises with fully published accounts.
-Dissolution of congressional or parliamentary power and the transfer of power to democratically run worker's soviets/councils. (End-result GA's in the workplace?)
-Total freedom of movement across boarders. Abolition of all laws on immigration.
-All credit focused into a democratically-run public bank.
-Absolute informational transparency of all governmental and economic organizations with all information available to the public. Abolition of state secrets. (Wikileaks universalized pretty much)
-Establishment of directly democratic decision making partially based upon demarchy and partially based on direct vote. (See Athenian democracy and Aristotle's definition of "demos")
-Direct vote on all taxes.
-All goods, services and wage slips to be stamped with their labor value. A transition from money notes to labor notes measuring the amount of labor-time contributed. Abolition of monetary circulation. (Money circulates, labor notes don't.)
-All economic enterprises to be put under democratic control and public ownership.
-Abolition of a standing army and a general arming of the population.
-Guaranteed right to food, education, a living wage, a home and medical care.
-Full reproductive rights to women.
-Full legal protection and recognition of homosexual marriage and peoples whose sex is genderqueer.
Oh my.
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If you both agree about the amount owed, and would like to work out a way to protect the lenders money, without swamping the borrower, you could agree to do something like:
$7,500 payable 10% interest only for 1 year, w/the balance due at the end of the term. That means a manageable payment of $62.50 a month, for 12 month, would protect the lenders money (or whatever interest rate they agree to, for whatever period of time). This would allow the borrower to service the debt, and hopefully recover to pay it off in full.
If even in those circumstances, one, or both, of you aren't confident that the borrower would be able to honor this agreement, perhaps the borrower could pay with some other thing suitable to the lender. If there is nothing suitable, the borrower could sell something to the lender, minus the money owed.
I've seen a situation where someone needed money, and there was potential lender who didn't have complete faith in the would be borrower's ability to repay. So the one with the money purchased the house from the one who needed the money, for just the amount needed, and gave them back a lease/option (option was same as purchase price +10%) back as part of the deal. In this circumstance, the one who needed the money actually was able to make the lease payments, protecting his option, and then sold the option to a buyer for the house. If the borrower/tenant couldn't have performed, the lender/home owner was happy with it, because the real estate was more valuable to him than the money it cost him. He was paid off, and made 10% on his money in less than two years, which was also a fine deal for him.
I mention this as it might be a model that works in this situation.. perhaps there is something BJ could give Coconut (of much greater value to Coconut than is owed) as payment for the debt... that Coconut would agree to sell back within the next year for whatever amount you can agree to (amount currently owed, plus whatever interest is suitable, I'd imagine). At this point BJ would have satisfied his current debt, and have the option to purchase his property back. In either event Coconut would be satisfied. Coconut could either keep whatever it is, or sell it.
I know this type of thing isn't what you guys had in mind originally, but if you give it some thought, you'll come up with some way/s to solve it.
BTW, I don't really know how much is owed.. I don't really know that anyone was looking for my advice, either. lol.. I sort of skimmed through the thread before writing this. So, anyway, plug in whatever #s work if interested.. and if not.. just ignore this.
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They have something called collateral, dude.
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If "businessmen" are all going to be bad, why wouldn't third parties be bad? They have the same incentives.
I would probably join or start a coop of some sort with agreed on restrictions of credit practices and delivery deals and wouldn't use bait and switch or hard sales practices with a heavy handed standard on customer satisfaction, because that is the way I like to work. My vendors don't work that way it makes my stuff worse. Self righteousness is out. In a free society it would be no problem to start such a thing. I just don't like to deal with scum who would hurt or use people.
If you have a bad boss, quit.
Those girls that worked at that match factory couldn't quit because when they tried to say "I quit." their jawbone fell off. After that they could only make funny noises and be blowjob whores for zombie fetish clientele.
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If you CANNOT quit, then the person who tells you what to do isn't a "boss." Choose another title, please.
And that list of demands from the occupier(s)was crazy. I think the second one down claimed that "all value comes from labor." Holy shit buddy, ponder that one for a little longer.
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If you CANNOT quit, then the person who tells you what to do isn't a "boss." Choose another title, please.
And that list of demands from the occupier(s)was crazy. I think the second one down claimed that "all value comes from labor." Holy shit buddy, ponder that one for a little longer.
Not from the "occupiers" just one person who was attempting to "make a socialist list of demands". I tried debating them but they got too emotional and I had to stop. And I directly rebutted the point you made :(
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I am abundantly pleased to announce that Jay has fulfilled his outstanding debt with me - plus an additional interest payment that was not in the contract. I am extremely grateful this has reached a conclusion beneficial to all involved.
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HOORAY!!!
Moving on...
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I say good show sir.
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I am abundantly pleased to announce that Jay has fulfilled his outstanding debt with me - plus an additional interest payment that was not in the contract. I am extremely grateful this has reached a conclusion beneficial to all involved.
Very happy this has occurred.
Less happy when I saw a moderator had edited my profile info to link to xtube.com when I went to change my signature...
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Now that you're all debt free n' shit, can I borrow a couple grand?
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Now that you're all debt free n' shit, can I borrow a couple grand?
How good are you at giving handjobs?
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Now that you're all debt free n' shit, can I borrow a couple grand?
How good are you at giving handjobs?
Good enough to know better than to sell em for only a couple grand.
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The best handjobs are reach-arounds.
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The best handjobs are reach-arounds.
Tell that to a guy with no arms, just nubs.
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The best handjobs are reach-arounds.
Tell that to a guy with no arms, just nubs.
Thats what your hook is for.
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The best handjobs are reach-arounds.
Tell that to a guy with no arms, just nubs.
Thats what your hook is for.
Thats what I need the two grand for.
Have you priced titanium hook-hands lately?
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In Soviet Russia, hook buy YOU!
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The best handjobs are reach-arounds.
Tell that to a guy with no arms, just nubs.
Thats what your hook is for.
Thats what I need the two grand for.
Have you priced titanium hook-hands lately?
Titanium? You know how expensive that shit is?
Solve 2 problems by buying a fleshlight, and duct-taping onto one of your stubs
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Solve 2 problems by buying a fleshlight, and duct-taping onto one of your stubs
I wonder if this guy's dad was kind enough to buy his son a fleshlight when he hit puberty, and if so, can you imagine how awkward that moment must have been?
(http://i.imgur.com/LjrX5.jpg)