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Author Topic: Boner Joe Owes Me Money  (Read 35674 times)

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Tom Foppiano

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Re: Boner Joe Owes Me Money
« Reply #75 on: December 31, 2011, 09:21:08 PM »


Negotiate a timeline for repayment.

You didn't seem to understand the rest of what I said.

I'm a moron. But I still don't think there is anything an arbitrator could do. The lender has offered many times to do that very same thing.
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anarchir

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Re: Boner Joe Owes Me Money
« Reply #76 on: December 31, 2011, 11:18:42 PM »

There is nothing our discussing this can really do. BJ just needs to pay it is all, and he knows that.
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alaric89

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Re: Boner Joe Owes Me Money
« Reply #77 on: January 01, 2012, 06:01:27 AM »


Negotiate a timeline for repayment.

You didn't seem to understand the rest of what I said.

I'm a moron. But I still don't think there is anything an arbitrator could do. The lender has offered many times to do that very same thing.
No argument there. I think BJ and Coconut would have a advantage with third party help. As it stands I would be hesitant to do business with either one. They are trying to be good little voluntariest, but the deal was bad. Period. A third party might have pointed out this. My visions of Libpar did not include broken thumbs and debtors prisons, with used car salesmen and loan sharks filling them up.

Tom Foppiano

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Re: Boner Joe Owes Me Money
« Reply #78 on: January 01, 2012, 02:25:01 PM »


No argument there. I think BJ and Coconut would have a advantage with third party help. As it stands I would be hesitant to do business with either one. They are trying to be good little voluntariest, but the deal was bad. Period. A third party might have pointed out this. My visions of Libpar did not include broken thumbs and debtors prisons, with used car salesmen and loan sharks filling them up.

Have you been using bath salts again? Where are the broken thumbs an debtors prisons, here? One guy stole someone else's property and then the victim attempted to damage his reputation by reporting it to the community. Coconut didn't do anything wrong.

And good god, high interest rates serve as a very important means for poor/low credit borrowers. Someone else previously told you to read Walter Block's chapter on this subject and I suggest you do the same. Then read something on subjective preferences. I think Bob Murphy's new book is a good start.

The short version of this topic is that when high interest rates are gotten rid of through laws or other means, the rich benefit most. At any one point in time, there is a certain supply of loanable funds. And every lender wants to be paid back. So how do poor people get loans when the rich are willing to borrow money? They add incentive by agreeing to higher interest rates. When high interest rates go away, so does the incentive to loan to risky borrowers. This will increase the supply of loanable funds to the wealthy. And guess what? Now that the poor can't borrow money, the rich, with an increased supply of loanable funds, will get an even lower interest rate.

So who are you serving by railing against high interest rates? Think about it. High interest rates, in fact, are just as important to risky borrowers as low wages are to those with low productivity.


But all of this aside, the borrower didn't even pay back the principle. He would have failed to repay this loan at any (positive) interest rate.
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alaric89

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Re: Boner Joe Owes Me Money
« Reply #79 on: January 01, 2012, 04:37:23 PM »

I would really like to see a impressively good solution to this problem, that would look good to some outsider who stumbles on the thread.
That defending the indefensible loses credibility with the pimp chapter. Author obviously never met a pimp. Private security or a call agency aren't pimps.
I am trying to point out the point of view of a statist, and you guys make a great argument for people needing government protection.
But garshen that "Bath salts" comment was awful clever.
"We need to have 'you-name-it' interest rates on contracts written on greasy spoon napkins so that the rich and connected can loan money at a cheap rate and loan it out at ridicules ones so the poor can lift themselves out of poverty or get their kneecaps cracked, or better yet we will bring back debtors prisons so the bread winners can rot in prison while the family whores out the children. * yeah.... vote Ron Paul."
That fucking book is even more subtile. Shows a cartoon of a banker throwing people with cement shoes off a loading dock, joking about a economic downturn.
I am merely a fellow traveller saying contracts should be looked at and notarised by a third party. At least I plan to operate that way at this point. This thread has not built my trust for libertarians up at all.

* Start of Pirates of Savanna.

Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Boner Joe Owes Me Money
« Reply #80 on: January 01, 2012, 09:37:08 PM »

Of course not. He will go crazy with unchecked power just like almost everyone else does. Get the hired guns, game over.
Human greed is alive and well. Contracts need a third party validation or we will have to have once a decade rich people hunts.

You don't seem to have strengthened your argument that the "biggest prick" will just rise to the top through cleverly contracted graft.  In fact, you omitted the whole mechanism by which it will take place when there's not one authority to bribe.

Quote
http://mises.org/books/defending.pdf
WTFK's reading assignment.
Non violent pimps. That is pretty funny.

I don't see why...it certainly isn't the stereotype, but to call it funny tilts your goofy hand in this discussion.
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Tom Foppiano

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Re: Boner Joe Owes Me Money
« Reply #81 on: January 01, 2012, 09:49:43 PM »

Who cares if some "outsiders" don't approve of the terms of this loan? Its none of their business. End of story. A fundamental difference that sets libertarian's apart is the fact that we believe people should be free to make dumb decisions.

Lots of statists think cannabis shouldn't be legal because its stupid to smoke dope. And we don't want to offend them, right? So lets all stop writing about cannabis legalization on the web due to the fear that it may push others to lose "trust" in libertarianism.

And don't forget that some "statist outsiders" absolutely HATE gay people and don't approve of gay marriage contracts. Should we not stand up for the right of gay people to get married? "Well, of course we should stand up for gay rights and pot smokers, Tom. But what we cannot stand for is high interest rates! You see, gays and wake and bakers are smart enough to make decisions, but the rest of us need a fucking nanny to look over our shoulders."

And why should all contracts have to certified by a third party? If I go to the grocery store and buy a potato, do I need some third party person there to make sure that I'm not over paying? Really, do I? Or what if I bought a pack of cigarettes? Do I need some third party to tell me that they're bad for my health?

Your fear that others will make the wrong decision given the freedom to do so reminds of a Huffington Post (I think) article I read a while back. The author claimed that Ron Paul was literally like a "crack dealer" when he proposed allowing young people to opt out of social security. Guess what? His reasoning was the same as yours.....he fears that people will make the "wrong" decision and not save for their retirement, just like you fear that borrowers will make the wrong decision and agree to high interest rates.

Back to the original transaction......This loan couldn't have been more simple. Borrow "x" dollars, pay back "y" dollars on this date. Do you think Boner Joe is a total moron who couldn't understand those terms? If so, then perhaps you should offer to run Joe's life for him. Just make sure you get the contract looked at and notarized by a third party, of course.

And what is this, "you guys make a great argument for people needing government protection." How am I making an argument in favor of government? Is it because of my view that people should be able to make their own decisions even if other people think they are stupid? To be honest, if you can't handle the thought of people making piss poor decisions in life, then maybe you should consider another ethical/political philosophy.

I hope you stay here, though. The statists have plenty of nannies attempting to control my life already.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2012, 09:53:09 PM by Tom Foppiano »
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alaric89

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Re: Boner Joe Owes Me Money
« Reply #82 on: January 02, 2012, 01:42:26 AM »

I couldn't stand by and watch people be ruined.
That is fine however.

Tom Foppiano

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Re: Boner Joe Owes Me Money
« Reply #83 on: January 02, 2012, 01:49:03 AM »

I couldn't stand by and watch people be ruined.
That is fine however.

Funny how you think its the borrower, not the unpaid lender, who is being ruined.
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Boner Joe Owes Me Money
« Reply #84 on: January 02, 2012, 01:53:44 AM »

I couldn't stand by and watch people be ruined.
That is fine however.

Funny how you think its the borrower, not the unpaid lender, who is being ruined.

What if BJ was threatened with photoshopped pics of him engaging in pedophilia? Would that be ok? That would ruin his reputation.

My problem is that there was not a designated third party to deal with this. Coconut has to do it himself, which may or may not be appropriate. It sure is inefficient.
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alaric89

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Re: Boner Joe Owes Me Money
« Reply #85 on: January 02, 2012, 08:11:19 AM »

I see a need for a third party as well. That is all I am saying.
This is mainly a "note to self" when dealing with other liberty people.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2012, 09:33:58 AM by alaric89 »
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Turd Ferguson

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Re: Boner Joe Owes Me Money
« Reply #86 on: January 02, 2012, 09:24:05 AM »

While a third party would be beneficial in some ways, I dont really see a need for it.

This situation is a perfect example of how free thinking individuals can learn from an unregulated free market and use the experience to shape their future actions. Both sides might be a bit more cautious in the future when entering a loan agreement. In my opinion, this is the best way to learn a lesson. Eventually, Cocount will get his cash back and BJ might be a little more cautious when borrowing money with high interest rates.

This knowledge is worth its weight in gold and required NO third party or regulation to attain it. Imagine if the average person had this mindset of caution when entering a loan agreement. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac would have never happened in the first place because both parties would already have this mindset of REAL risk in mind before entering into the deal.

Its the perfect system. Totally organic, maaaaan. *puff, pass*
« Last Edit: January 02, 2012, 09:28:53 AM by quickmike »
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alaric89

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Re: Boner Joe Owes Me Money
« Reply #87 on: January 02, 2012, 10:10:14 AM »

I learned a lot as well. I had just hoped I wouldn't need to watch my loved ones so closely in a free society. Not a problem really, just like the arbitrator system better.

Fred

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Re: Boner Joe Owes Me Money
« Reply #88 on: January 02, 2012, 06:46:01 PM »

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alaric89

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Re: Boner Joe Owes Me Money
« Reply #89 on: January 04, 2012, 04:00:43 AM »

It sure isn't. When I think of giving "businessmen" free rein to do what they want I think of this article.
http://www.cracked.com/article/89_the-6-most-horrific-bosses-all-time/
And think they should at least be afraid of vengeful family members or whatnot.
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