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Author Topic: Bitcoin  (Read 80299 times)

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John Shaw

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #75 on: June 11, 2011, 06:00:27 PM »

Basing investments on whether or not you *think* you know what a dude is thinking is... Not so great. I'd never invest money on the bet that "He might just be saying that he's in line with gooberment just because he doesn't want them harassing him." That's a big assumption. The dude said it publicly. I'll take him at his word and stay away.

I still have to investigate further and do a bit more research, but that's not what I was saying.  I was saying he CAN'T do the things he's promising the gubment.  I'm saying he has no control over Bitcoins anymore so they are empty promises.  I was only psychoanalyzing him to figure out why he would say things like that when he knows he can't and when he knows that people who understand Bitcoins know he can't.  They DESIGNED them to be decentralized and NOT controllable in that manner.


Aight.

But Imma ask again -

Where do Bitcoins come from?

Can you Convert Bitcoins into FRNs or Silver or Gold or whatever within an hour of receiving them?

Can you withdraw Bitcoins as FRN's in the same quantity as you can deposit them? Specifically can you put $10,000 into your wallet and then immediately turn around wnd withdraw $10,000 (the full amount)? Are there withdrawal limits?

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Branlin

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #76 on: June 11, 2011, 08:55:17 PM »

I read the first few pages of this thread, and have read about bitcoins on their own website as hawked by Mark and Ian and have read the Wiki article on them, but have yet to see any explanation on how any real value is, or can be, attached to them.

Forget about the gubmint cracking the codes, or shutting down the internet to stop it, yadda yadda yadda, as I see it, they are like any other fiat currency -- they are created out of thin air and have no intrinsic value.
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dalebert

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #77 on: June 11, 2011, 10:08:54 PM »

Where do Bitcoins come from?

Extremely complex number-crunching.

Quote
Can you Convert Bitcoins into FRNs or Silver or Gold or whatever within an hour of receiving them?

As long as people want them and have FRNs or Silver or Gold to trade for them, then yes.

Quote
Can you withdraw Bitcoins as FRN's in the same quantity as you can deposit them? Specifically can you put $10,000 into your wallet and then immediately turn around wnd withdraw $10,000 (the full amount)? Are there withdrawal limits?

There are several services that facilitate such things and there can be many more.  It will depend on the market.  It appears to be growing and getting better every day which is why Bitcoins are shooting up in value.  Confidence in them is growing.  More services are being provided.  For instance there is service that let's you use Bitcoins to buy from anywhere online that accepts VISA.  There's an elaborate gambling site that uses Bitcoins.  There's no one entity that controls them.  Whomever out there wants to become a part of the trading "cloud" by starting to accept them will broaden the possibilities and impact the market.

I'm predicting them becoming more of a tool for black and gray markets because they are nigh impossible to control.  It would place them into something of a niche market (people distrustful of and willing to defy gubments) but I see that as a rapidly growing niche market.

dalebert

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #78 on: June 11, 2011, 10:24:23 PM »

Osborne

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #79 on: June 12, 2011, 12:31:27 AM »

Musical chairs.
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John Shaw

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #80 on: June 12, 2011, 02:04:45 AM »

Extremely complex number-crunching.

...  

But where do they come from? I am asking a very specific question here, and it leads to more questions.

There is vague talk of "Generating" bitcoins "Using unspent processor cycles."

What does this mean? Are we talking about the client processing data in exchange for currency created by the cloud? If so, why wouldn't I use the source code to make a virus that performs the same task but only for my bitcoin account? Or for that matter, why wouldn't I release a game, an app, a screensaver, whatever to do the same thing using the source code?

Or if we go "Legit", what about the IT guy who puts a client on every PC in an org?

It's open source, right? The source is there and if you aren't altering the primary mechanism what can anyone do about it? What is to stop a dude from setting up 500 accounts that do nothing but transfer bitcoins back and forth, creating the illusion of more transactions than there actually are? I mean, a motivated coder could probably design a single client that runs 1000 accounts at once, right?

You're not suggesting that open source developers can enforce some sort of control against abuse of the license, right? I mean you made very clear that no one can do anything about bitcoin and that it's pretty much unassailable from the networking standpoint.  

I forsee fifty billion altered but fully functional bitcoin accounts sitting someplace in China being a problem.


As long as people want them and have FRNs or Silver or Gold to trade for them, then yes.

Lemme reiterate what I was trying to say -

If there is a run on Bitcoins, can I get them out before it devalues? Can I move it quickly. I don't care about the medium of exchange.

There are several services that facilitate such things and there can be many more.  It will depend on the market.  It appears to be growing and getting better every day which is why Bitcoins are shooting up in value.  Confidence in them is growing.  More services are being provided.  For instance there is service that let's you use Bitcoins to buy from anywhere online that accepts VISA.  There's an elaborate gambling site that uses Bitcoins.  There's no one entity that controls them.  Whomever out there wants to become a part of the trading "cloud" by starting to accept them will broaden the possibilities and impact the market.

I'm predicting them becoming more of a tool for black and gray markets because they are nigh impossible to control.  It would place them into something of a niche market (people distrustful of and willing to defy gubments) but I see that as a rapidly growing niche market.

Again, that wasn't the answer to my question.

I specifically want to know can I withdraw as quickly as I can put in? Are there withdraw limits?


I'm not busting your balls here, but I just don't see how it's a good move to keep any money sitting there for more than minutes at a time, and if the services that provide for the edge of the network don't offer quick access and unlimited access to funds there's a major problem.

Not to mention all of the software issues I see.

I was dubious at first, but now I am fairly certain that using Bitcoin would not be good for me as a medium of exchange and I won't be using it. If I, as a non programmer layperson (Sure, I'm a sharp cat, but I haven't written code since maybe 1990 or earlier) can see dozens of problems with this model then a real programmer would tear this thing apart and abuse the shit out of it.

And mind you, I haven't even gotten close to talking about the actual economics of it all.

This thing stinks of a ponzi scheme and I really really hope you don't end up getting fucked in the bad way.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2011, 02:15:28 AM by John Shaw »
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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #81 on: June 12, 2011, 02:30:35 AM »

+1 John Shaw.

From the beginning I've seen BitCoin as a scam.  I hope I'm wrong....
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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #82 on: June 12, 2011, 11:41:47 AM »

From the beginning I've seen BitCoin as a scam.
Deosn't have to be a scam to be a bad idea

Turd Ferguson

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #83 on: June 12, 2011, 12:28:50 PM »

From the beginning I've seen BitCoin as a scam.
Deosn't have to be a scam to be a bad idea

Hey now, Bit-coins are the product of extremely advanced number crunching, which takes almost zero effort for a computer to calculate.  That makes them valuable. :lol:
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alaric89

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #84 on: June 12, 2011, 01:19:35 PM »

A lot of liberty people took a huge loss because of the value backed liberty dollar. "Commodity based" may be outdated. I took M7's point to heart, there is nothing for the state to steal with a private fiat currency. I use government fiat currency and I trust private providers more. Its the connections to the government, that others have pointed out, that makes me the most skeptical of bitcoin.

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #85 on: June 12, 2011, 01:22:03 PM »

And I wonder too, what exactly does all that number crunching do?

Could all this CPU power be used to perform some other hidden task?
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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #86 on: June 12, 2011, 01:32:51 PM »

 :lol: :lol: Yeah... leaving your CPU doing whatever-the-fuck from some unknown programmer doesn't sound to smart does it. I used to file share and I didn't know how that worked either, though.  

Turd Ferguson

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #87 on: June 12, 2011, 01:47:31 PM »

A lot of liberty people took a huge loss because of the value backed liberty dollar. "Commodity based" may be outdated.


Yet the commodity that the Liberty Dollar was manufactured from still holds value, not to mention that if you're still lucky enough to hold a few of the LD's that slipped through the cracks, they still have plenty of value as well. Only the company went down, not the underlying commodity. Whats the underlying value of the bitcoin if they were to get infiltrated somehow? I dont think you could say the same thing about bitcoins that can be said about the LD, if TPTB were to crack down on it.

Its not even the use of bitcoins right now that worries me. Its what happens if they were to ever become popular on a wide scale and gain the attention of the wrong people, that I worry about. 
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Osborne

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #88 on: June 12, 2011, 01:52:30 PM »

I just spent a half hour taking a shit. I guess I should have wrapped it up and sold it to one of these bitcoin advocates.
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Turd Ferguson

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #89 on: June 12, 2011, 02:14:45 PM »

I just spent a half hour taking a shit. I guess I should have wrapped it up and sold it to one of these bitcoin advocates.

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