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Author Topic: Bitcoin  (Read 80306 times)

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Turd Ferguson

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #45 on: May 21, 2011, 09:53:40 AM »

Sort of like how people dont ynderstand credit cards and the like,

I took a pair of shoes in to get repaired. The repair guy is like 45 or so. We chit chat, and he mentions my shoe size. He says "Gotta be hard finding those." I'm like "Not really, just order them off the internet."

He says "Oh, I keep forgetting you can do that."

Maybe its all the vapors from the shoe polish.

You shouldn't fuck with peoples reality like that. You should say "yeah, I order em out of that new fangled Sears & Roebuck's catalog they have nowadays. Dang, they got everything.  I git em with muh rock candies and buggy whips n' such"
« Last Edit: May 21, 2011, 10:09:40 AM by quickmike »
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dalebert

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #46 on: June 07, 2011, 03:33:37 PM »

Upon clicking this thread: "The site www.fbi.gov wants to set a cookie."  Probably some hacker's practical joke.

The Coming Attack on Bitcoin and How to Survive It
« Last Edit: June 07, 2011, 03:35:37 PM by Dalebert »
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jadams

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #47 on: June 09, 2011, 09:57:45 AM »

Yesterday, a new bitcoin exchange called Tradehill (https://www.tradehill.com/) opened as a competitor to Mt Gox. Competition is a good thing so give them a look. Use referral code TH-R1956 to get a lifetime 10% commision discount.
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Turd Ferguson

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #48 on: June 09, 2011, 11:18:28 AM »

So what happens if you put all your faith in the bitcoin, and some guy/company with deep pockets sees it becoming a success, then starts his own BIGGER AND BETTER version of the bitcoin? Everyone would scramble for the exit door of the bitcoin.

Thats what bothers me about bitcoin. NOTHING backing it whatsoever. Its just air. If nobody wants it, it has no value........none.
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dalebert

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #49 on: June 09, 2011, 12:53:12 PM »

If nobody wants it, it has no value........none.

That's true of anything.

Turd Ferguson

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #50 on: June 09, 2011, 03:44:34 PM »

If nobody wants it, it has no value........none.

That's true of anything.

Let me rephrase that.

It has no value due to the fact that it cant be used for anything else. Gold, silver are used in manufacturing of electronics, for example. Hell, if you were in a tight spot, you could even chuck a 10 silver bar at someones head and kill them with it in self defense. Can you do anything with a bitcoin intrinsically? so even if the use as a currency were to suddenly evaporate with something like metals, they would still be worth something intrinsically and could be used to trade for goods and services. The same cannot be said about the bit-coin. It is nothing, whatsoever. Can you hold a bitcoin? Can you weigh it? No................ it is nothing.


I could never trust anything like that.

Now if it were widely used, I would most likely use it, but as it stands now, I dont trust it. Same way I look at the US dollar. When I have extra dollars I dont need, I put it in silver. Its been around for a loooooong time and will most likely stay around. Bitcoin? Who knows.


Thats all im sayin.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 05:38:09 PM by quickmike »
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sillyperson

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #51 on: June 10, 2011, 12:26:54 AM »

People all breathless about bitcoin are teleported from 1997. It's just a series of tubes, yo.

Here's the one thing you need to know about Boitcoin:

Every single Bitcoin is a number. That's it, that's all, and nothing else.
It's a big number number with some fancy mathematical properties, but it's just a fucking number.

If I give you a much smaller number with similar fancy mathematical properties, like oh say "17", do you get richer?




If there's no atoms, there's no money. Period.

John Shaw

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #52 on: June 10, 2011, 01:44:49 AM »

Just watched Bitcoin vid and read up on it because I'm behind on the rest of the world.

It looks interesting. I wouldn't use it as an investment.

One gooberment raid on a meatspace outlet where they turn Bitcoins into Real Things(tm) would collapse the whole thing, it seems to me.

Also it's not backed by anything, obviously. And bitcoins have to come from somewhere. It's fiat all over again, algorithms or no.

I wouldn't be against using it for incoming transactions, say for selling digital stuff, especially micro type payments, but it'd go right into meatspace as fast as possible. If it's not possible to do fast, I'd be hesitant.
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sillyperson

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #53 on: June 10, 2011, 06:27:40 AM »

It's fiat all over again, algorithms or no.
Interesting point...

They *have* managed to design bitcoins to be scarce so they're not "printable" like traditional fiat currency. They don't even suffer from the theoretical problem that gold does ("what if a gold meteor suddenly delivered 10 tons of gold to the earth?")

They are like fiat currency, though, in that they have no intrinsic value, each bitcoin just being a number.

LTKoblinsky

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #54 on: June 10, 2011, 06:37:07 AM »

Exchange value is still value. So, are they valuable? Yes, as long as people are willing to exchange tangible services and goods for them.
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dalebert

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #55 on: June 10, 2011, 07:33:37 AM »

They are like fiat currency, though, in that they have no intrinsic value, each bitcoin just being a number.

The countless numbers that were used to build your house (like measurements, budgets, heat exchange calculations) have "no intrinsic value" and yet your house couldn't have been built without them.  In context, they had tremendous utility.  A Bitcoin is just a number, but in the context of the Bitcoin network, it is essential in a tool for facilitating trade, a very useful activity.

And I don't think one raid will collapse Bitcoins.  Things like Silk Road are already taking precautions against raids and they are extremely useful for stuph like that.  Other exchangers can take some basic precautions against raids as well.  The TOR network is already another layer of anonymity on top of what's already part of Bitcoins.

I wouldn't invest a LOT in them.  I've simply looked at them as a diversification option.  They have advantages and disadvantages over other options.  One of the disadvantages is that they're new and therefore very speculative.  Hell, look at all this speculation going on!  But people saying they have "no intrinsic value!" sound like a caveman looking at a lump of freshly mined copper and saying it has no value because they've never seen fancy plumbing or electrical wire in action.

Fred

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #56 on: June 10, 2011, 12:45:41 PM »

a David Kramer post on Lew Rockwell about bitcoin:   

« Previous: The Truth About Filibustering | LRC Home | LRC Blog | Next: Hillary Clinton, World Bankster? »

June 9, 2011
Bitcoin: Just Another Bogus Medium of Exchange
Posted by David Kramer on June 9, 2011 03:00 PM

I'm sure by now many of you have heard about Bitcoin. The fact that it's called "virtual currency" gives you an idea about its actual value as a real medium of exchange. While many people who are touting it on Facebook are enamored with the fact that it was voluntarily created by the marketplace (i.e., is not forced down our throats by a private central bank), I'm afraid that those people are losing sight of how a real medium of exchange arises in a free market. A medium of exchange arises from something that had a material use/value in the market prior to becoming a medium of exchange, i.e., it was also a good being  bartered for other goods and services. Over the centuries, gold and silver won out as the two most preferred mediums of exchange—with gold holding the number one position due to it being more scarce than silver.

What was Bitcoin's prior material use/value? Zero. It is just bits in a computer. And what's with the "fixed" amount of Bitcoins? Who determined the "proper" amount? A computer programmer? Only the free market can voluntarily determine how much of a real medium of exchange is needed in the marketplace over time. While the idea of  attempting to get rid of the Bankster monopoly on creating money out of thin air is commendable, Bitcoin is also money created out of thin air. Bitcoin is just substituting one bogus medium of exchange for another.

UPDATE: I've been getting a lot of reader response trying to "explain" to me the economic virtues of Bitcoin. Some responders have even mistakenly used Austrian economics to rationalize their views. I would suggest that before you write to me about the Austrian economics view of a medium of exchange, you should read the two books by one of the two giants of Austrian economics, Murray Rothbard, on what a medium of exchange is. Here is the pdf for Rothbard's What Has Government Done to Our Money and here is the pdf for Rothbard's The Case Against the Fed. For those of you who have not yet read any Austrian economics, please do not waste your time writing to me trying to explain the "scientific" breakthrough of the bogus Bitcoin computer program. (There already was a REAL digital currency, e-gold, that was backed by a real commodity until the Federalistas shut it down. Eventually, Bitcoin will be shut down too because of its anonymity capabilities.)
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John Shaw

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #57 on: June 10, 2011, 01:35:03 PM »

The countless numbers that were used to build your house (like measurements, budgets, heat exchange calculations) have "no intrinsic value" and yet your house couldn't have been built without them.

Yes, and all those numbers measure a tangible physical object that requires said numbers to work in a tangible physical reality.

Bitcoins have no such requirement and are not backed by a tangible physical object.

A free market fiat currency has no more value than a government fiat currency. Fiat currency as a concept is the problem.

Like I sez, I'll probably take 'em when I get more into the selling things, but they'll be turned into real money, or even real fake money like FRNs as quickly as I can do it. If I can't turn a pile of Bitcoins into something else more tangible within a matter of hours I'd have serious concerns about runs on Bitcoins and government attacks.

One government raid will cause a run on Bitcoins where people cash out to protect their money. The value will drop. Doesn't matter if a raid doesn't kill Bitcoins outright. What matters is the reactions of individuals when their lives and investments are threatened.

They will SELL! SELL! SELL! and poof.

Like I said, the only reason I could see dealing in 'em is to take money from people or maybe as a method of transferring moneys directly from one person to another. The Bitcoins would remain in the wallet for a matter of hours longer than the length of the transaction.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 01:38:31 PM by John Shaw »
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Brooklyn Red Leg

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #58 on: June 10, 2011, 01:43:40 PM »

A free market fiat currency has no more value than a government fiat currency. Fiat currency as a concept is the problem.

I think as long as people realize its a fiat currency and are not forced into using it, why should anyone else care? If someone wants to literally buy stuff with Monopoly money and some merchant actually accepts it for whatever that's their business. Its not so much fiat currency is the problem as ENFORCED fiat currency.
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dalebert

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #59 on: June 10, 2011, 01:58:16 PM »

Yes, and all those numbers measure a tangible physical object that requires said numbers to work in a tangible physical reality.

The point is the numbers had value because they had an application.  They were useful in context.  None of them had intrinsic value but that didn't matter.  The numbers, in the context in which they were used, had tremendous utility.  Saying Bitcoins have no value because they're just bits is like saying the program Photoshop has no value because it's just bits.  Why is it that libertarians see the obvious value in a program that can put a celebrity's head on top of a pornstar's naked body but this amazing distributed application with functionality for anonymity, security, confirmation of transactions, and immediately conclude it has no value based on a couple of criteria that they don't normally apply to the virtual world of bits?

I don't quite follow your concern about government raid having such a powerful impact.  Encryption and backups would make it nigh impossible to steal someone's Bitcoins.  A single operation might be shutdown and it would reduce by one a place where Bitcoins are exchangeable, but that's just a single op.  Bitcoins operations are peer-to-peer.  Napster has been shutdown but bit-torrenting has continued for years with no sign of being stopped in sight.
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