The Free Talk Live BBS
Free Talk Live => General => Topic started by: Tom Foppiano on December 15, 2011, 02:27:09 PM
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I am not arguing in favor of the death penalty and I really only want to focus on one specific issue surrounding it.
Can someone please explain to me why it is ok to put an innocent person in jail for the rest of his/her life (never letting them go) and not ok to kill him/her?
Yes, SOME of those innocent people will be let out of jail early and given compensation, but SOME of them won’t. Do you get my point? I’ll write it again using different words. If you want rights violators to be put in jail, or be forced to pay compensation, SOME of them will be innocent and will never, ever be found not guilty. Their lives will virtually be destroyed.
There is no way to guarantee that ALL people who are killed are truly guilty, just like there is no way to ensure that ALL people who go to jail until they die a “natural” death are guilty.
I would prefer to be enslaved in prison over being killed. I think. But I can’t find a principled difference between the two options. Of course, I could say, “Death is permanent! And wrongly convicted persons in jail can be set free.” But for SOME innocent people, jail will be as permanent as death.
Links about this topic would be great, if anyone knows of a scholar or two who has tackled this issue. Though, I really only want to discuss this specific point in the death penalty debate.
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If someone in jail is found to be innocent they can be released.
If someone is put to death and is found to be innocent they are still dead.
Death is final and can not be corrected at a later date.
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If someone in jail is found to be innocent they can be released.
If someone is put to death and is found to be innocent they are still dead.
Death is final and can not be corrected at a later date.
Did you read my post? I'm happy that innocent people "can" be released. That is super neat-o. But not all of them WILL be released. Do you understand what my point is?
Again, jail is just as "final" for some innocent people as death. Meaning, they will never experience freedom again. Yes, some innocents will be set free. I agree. Just like some people who are ordered to death will be set free prior to the lethal injection.
Do you understand that there will be innocent people who will spend the rest of their lives in prison? I understand that there will be innocent people who are put to death. But lets not pretend that innocent people don't go to prison and never come out.
Both of these punishments WILL be used against innocent people who are never, ever, ever, ever compensated.
Please address why it is acceptable to put innocent people in jail for the rest of their lives.
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Why would I find jailing innocents for life acceptable? NOBODY in the other thread ever said that either.
You are trying to find someone to back an untenable position. You have truly won the argument - IN the Charley Sheen type Winning.
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Why would I find jailing innocents for life acceptable? NOBODY in the other thread ever said that either.
You are trying to find someone to back an untenable position. You have truly won the argument - IN the Charley Sheen type Winning.
I have no idea what the Charley Sheen thing means. I'm guessing that you're claiming my logic is inconsistent and nonsensical, like that of a drug addict.
Anyways, I'm "trying to back someone into an untenable position" because the position held by Mark and others on FTL is untenable.
Lets try this again. Mark, and callers on FTL said they do not support the death penalty, in part, because it results in the killing of innocent people. Then Mark went a little further and said people who support the death penalty support killing innocent people. That was absolutely said. Check it out.
Yet, why don't people who support prison sentences support enslaving innocent people for the rest of their lives?
You don't see a logical disconnect here? I don't know of too many more ways to write this......
If you're against the death penalty and pro life in prison, fine! More power to you. Lets have a party, invite Charley Sheen and your meth dealer. But if you say that capital punishment advocates support killing innocents, then you must claim that you support enslaving innocents.
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It took me several posts like this to realize you're trolling us. That's really embarrassing for me.
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It took me several posts like this to realize you're trolling us. That's really embarrassing for me.
I googled "troll" and wiki says that trolls try to provoke an "emotional response." That is the exact opposite of what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to provoke a rational response.
Isn't that what this discussion board is for? To discuss liberty issues?
Or maybe the forum is for all of us liberty people to just pat each other on the back and echo each other's views. The best way, IMO, to arrive at correct libertarian positions is hold them up to the light and inspect them. To have libertarians hash it out and let the consistent, principled views rise to the top. I inspected a few things about the death penalty and disagreed with them. That is all.
If you want to send me a message or something to let me know what I did wrong, I'd be happy to consider changing my approach.
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Or maybe the forum is for all of us liberty people to just pat each other on the back and echo each other's views.
Yeah, I agree.
Great job!!!
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Or maybe the forum is for all of us liberty people to just pat each other on the back and echo each other's views.
Yeah, I agree.
Great job!!!
High five!
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Or maybe the forum is for all of us liberty people to just pat each other on the back and echo each other's views.
Yeah, I agree.
Great job!!!
High five!
I approve this message.
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Or maybe the forum is for all of us liberty people to just pat each other on the back and echo each other's views.
Yeah, I agree.
Great job!!!
High five!
I approve this message.
You feel a couple of manly pats on your back when a fellow libertarian suddenly utters, "Nice work."
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Choice of cage type prison (Some may choose this after considering both options.) or free range penal colonies.
Next issue.
P.S. - John Carpenter and Kurt Russell just called, they have some serious questions.
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It took me several posts like this to realize you're trolling us. That's really embarrassing for me.
I can see his point. It makes sense to me. I can't really think of any way to explain it that's clearer than what he's already said, though. I guess I'll try.
Mark Edge said that people who support the death penalty are "supporting the killing of innocent people" because inevitably there will be a wrong conviction which will not be overturned in time, resulting in an innocent man getting executed. By that same logic, though, anyone who supports lifetime imprisonment could be said to support the lifetime imprisonment of innocent people because inevitably there will be a wrong conviction which will not be overturned in time before that person dies in prison.
This is not some kind of argument in favor of the death penalty or anything, it's just a specific criticism of a particular (inflammatory) thing Mark said which I've never heard any other anti-DP person say anyway.
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Choice of cage type prison (Some may choose this after considering both options.) or free range penal colonies.
Nice. Choice of rape cage or rape colony.
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Choice of cage type prison (Some may choose this after considering both options.) or free range penal colonies.
Nice. Choice of rape cage or rape colony.
Not bad choices really, considering they took everything someone ever had away from them.
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Choice of cage type prison (Some may choose this after considering both options.) or free range penal colonies.
Nice. Choice of rape cage or rape colony.
Not bad choices really, considering they took everything someone ever had away from them.
I don't do torturer. But I would kill someone.
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Choice of cage type prison (Some may choose this after considering both options.) or free range penal colonies.
Nice. Choice of rape cage or rape colony.
Not bad choices really, considering they took everything someone ever had away from them.
I don't do torturer. But I would kill someone.
I would kill someone in self defense, but if someone slipped in my window and slashed my throat while I was sleeping, I would hope the people that caught him would have enough common sense to remove him from the rest of the population.
I just dont feel comfortable with a third party deciding who lives or dies, so the common sense thing to me would be to simply remove them and let nature take its course from there. If its a prison colony, they might get raped, or POSSIBLY they all get along and live together with no issue. I dont care. Just get them away from everyone else.
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Choice of cage type prison (Some may choose this after considering both options.) or free range penal colonies.
Nice. Choice of rape cage or rape colony.
Not bad choices really, considering they took everything someone ever had away from them.
I don't do torturer. But I would kill someone.
I would kill someone in self defense, but if someone slipped in my window and slashed my throat while I was sleeping, I would hope the people that caught him would have enough common sense to remove him from the rest of the population.
You can remove him from the rest of the population by killing him.
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Choice of cage type prison (Some may choose this after considering both options.) or free range penal colonies.
Nice. Choice of rape cage or rape colony.
Not bad choices really, considering they took everything someone ever had away from them.
I don't do torturer. But I would kill someone.
I would kill someone in self defense, but if someone slipped in my window and slashed my throat while I was sleeping, I would hope the people that caught him would have enough common sense to remove him from the rest of the population.
You can remove him from the rest of the population by killing him.
Not if im already dead.
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Choice of cage type prison (Some may choose this after considering both options.) or free range penal colonies.
Nice. Choice of rape cage or rape colony.
Not bad choices really, considering they took everything someone ever had away from them.
I don't do torturer. But I would kill someone.
I would kill someone in self defense, but if someone slipped in my window and slashed my throat while I was sleeping, I would hope the people that caught him would have enough common sense to remove him from the rest of the population.
You can remove him from the rest of the population by killing him.
Not if im already dead.
I could kill him for you, but I won't lock him up in my basement for the rest of his life.
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Choice of cage type prison (Some may choose this after considering both options.) or free range penal colonies.
Nice. Choice of rape cage or rape colony.
Well you can't make reparations for a dead person. I mean, you can't undo the death. Reparations for rape are basically the same. You can't recompense + something more* with rape, either. Theft you can undo + something more. Even knocking some teeth out or breaking bones you can undo + something more. Can't undo rape or murder, so there's no reparation.
Other options - Open season and blacklisting from protective services firms. No one would say boo if Mr./Mrs. Convicted Rapist/Murderer got one in the back of the head. First time a motherfucker in that position got uppity with anyone it'd be over. Sure, there would be hobbyists who'd go out and kill those types just for kicks, but they're a self repairing problem anyhow. Bloodthirsty people often end up murdering and getting put on their own lil' list.
Armed society and all that.
I, personally, would happily pay for highly socialized (Meaning people interacting, not payed for by gooberment.) rehabilitation/therapy and separated confinement. (No shared cells and or places for bad things to happen.) Keep 'em in crayons and paste and get them talking about what fucked them up. Make 'em read some fuckin' books. Can't feel regret or remorse or a desire for change if you don't know how to feel.
When I'm crabby and feeling a little callous I fall back on penal colonies. Let 'em work out their own society and fuck 'em. Mine the fookin' asteroid belt.
*Something more meaning something in addition to making the person whole. Damages I think they call it.
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Choice of cage type prison (Some may choose this after considering both options.) or free range penal colonies.
Nice. Choice of rape cage or rape colony.
Not bad choices really, considering they took everything someone ever had away from them.
I don't do torturer. But I would kill someone.
I would kill someone in self defense, but if someone slipped in my window and slashed my throat while I was sleeping, I would hope the people that caught him would have enough common sense to remove him from the rest of the population.
You can remove him from the rest of the population by killing him.
Not if im already dead.
I could kill him for you, but I won't lock him up in my basement for the rest of his life.
I dont think anyone should be justified in taking someone elses life, except in self defense. Just throw him on the island. If he really hates it that much, he can take his own life if he chooses to do so.
As for locking him in your basement, I wouldn't want you to do that either. I'd feel terrible knowing you'd have to tell him to "put the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again" every day.
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I'll lock him in my basement if he's hot. And instead of lotion, I'll lower the lube down in a bucket...
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To be sure, applying the death penalty or imprisonment for life is a violent act against whom either is waged.
But how does a free society deal with sociopathic or psychopathic criminals who violate natural law with impunity and without regard to the rights of his fellow man?
While the death penalty makes it impossible to redress a wrong made against an imprisoned innocent, imprisonment for life or banishment from society allow for SOME type of restitution for anyone imprisoned unjustly and later exonerated.
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Look, if you murder someone, you deserve to be executed. The problem is how to sort out the guilty party.
Figure out who did it and whack em back.
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Look, if you murder someone, you deserve to be executed. The problem is how to sort out the guilty party.
Figure out who did it and whack em back.
+1
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Every time I read this thread title, I think of double-penetration.
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Every time I read this thread title, I think of double-penetration.
Yup and since the OP is a dude that leaves either double anal or some rotisserie action.