Are we witnessing the last days of Christianity? (Hipster churches)

[hellbilly]

Hipster Church, AKA "Theology Reformation" AKA "Emergent Christianity" - any of you attend one of these? Have any in your area? There are at least 3 near me trying to out-cool one another.

The hipster church is being called a "reforming" of the church. Apparently (based on the claims of those against the "movement") this reformation completely transforms the whole premise of sin & redemption into a message about nothing but love. That's only half the story of salvation.. so I figure -- and no big stretch of logic here -- it's about money. If you want to keep your church alive, at least in areas free from extreme poverty and fascist dictatorship, you simply change the message. Modernize it, make the message more palatable, perhaps even make it sexy (well, at least for gay fellas and women I guess.. whomever may be attracted to feminine looking chaps HELLO DALE) ..continue the fashion of indoctrinating youth and rake in the dough for life, etc.

That kind of passivity guarantees the end of any forceful impact Christianity can have on a society, so let's pray that these Hipster Churches are packed full of their own peculiar brand of soldiers for Jesus.

As older Christians die off, the pews will be wide open for these more modern and progressive (and liberal) churchies. Can't happen fast enough and I pray that the Islamic faith is neutered as well. As things go however, it's likely that as Christianity fails Islam will only grow stronger. It's really a pathetic scenario but not entirely without humor.

[dalebert]

As things go however, it's likely that as Christianity fails Islam will only grow stronger.

How do you figure? It seems like people are rejecting Xianity because it's so oppressive and irrational. Seems like that and Islam would go down together. If you mean it's fueling our wars against predominantly Islamic nations, are you suggesting we need to keep those going?

[hellbilly]

Definitely not suggesting a continuance of war.. at least not in a pro-Christian sense. War against all aggressive/fascist/invasive religions.. surewhynotletsstartnow! I'm thinking in terms of centuries here as well, not suggesting we're seeing the fall right now literally... only the beginning. And who would have thought that the church would tumble down due to it's own occupants? Delightful.

As societies/cultures become more advanced/enlightened the need to turn to religion for answers diminishes, as does the birth rates of those peoples. I guess China is an exception, due to Buddhism or whatever, I have no idea. Meanwhile, in areas prone to intellectual sloth, the yokels there have plenty of time to rape their women and prevent most forms of abortion -- when they aren't studying their Korans or brushing up on the latest beheading techniques, that is -- thereby ensuring a steady supply of children to be brainwashed and forced into a life of servitude to the church (and in the case of Islam, society in general).

That theory sits evenly aside the next: that huge numbers of idiots do exist and they have ripe minds eager to become warped by those who claim to be gifted with the ability to speak directly to deities. ... *Insert cop joke or reference here* ...hehe. So, as opportunities for worshiping in Christian churches decrease, they'll turn to the next most aggressive religion which claims to have all the answers: Islam. Not to mention the complacent tendencies of weak minds to fall prey to religious fads.. consider the number of Europeans & Americans lining up to be slaves for Allah. Not huge in quantity, but enough to warrant a shudder. African Christians don't count, they convert to whatever church brings the rice and digs the wells.

So as the balance tips away from Christianity (in credit: due in large part it's adherents' eagerness to deconstruct the fable), the seemingly endless, continual flow of new and eager Muslims will remain unaltered, thus the scale dips heavily in Allah's favor.

At any rate I truly believe, or it may be said that I have faith, that this peculiar brand of Christian Hipster Soldier is the tangible essence of the death of a god that never existed.

[John Shaw]

It's always just been about getting that 10% of the income.

The guilt trip used to work (Hell, worked for almost two thousand years) but people are getting savvy to it in recent centuries. Shit's coming to a head and the smart con men can sniff it out.

So they change the pitch. Dumping the "YOU SHOULD FEEL SHITTY BECAUSE YOU ARE HORRIBLY FLAWED AND ONLY THROUGH GOD CAN YOU BE PERFECT, ALSO, ONLY THOUGH US CAN YOU FIND GAWD, SO MAKE WITH THE TEN FUCKING PERCENT." schtick and replacing it with "HAY GUY, COME HANG OUT, WE'RE ALL FRIENDS HERE, DON'T YOU WANT FRIENDS? ALSO BUSINESS NETWORKING AND DATING TOO! ONLY TEN PERCENT YO! COME ON DOWN AND WATCH PASTOR BRAD PLAY DRUMS IN THIS REALLY MEAN ROCK BAND WE HAVE. WE DO COVERS OF VAN HALEN CIRCA 1984 AND CHANGE THE LYRICS. YOU SHOULD HEAR 'HOT FOR JESUS'!!!"

The Catholics figured this shit out a LOOONG time ago. Hence the permissiveness about booze, gambling, and swearing. Venal vs. Carnal sins is pretty much laying it out. "Make with the 10% and everything is cool. Also most sin is aight so long as you say sorry or do some community service shit after you die, you know, like cleaning up demon turds on the heaven side of the river Styx or some shit. The only leftover beefs they have are about sex and it's all lame shit.

It's all about the tithe yo. Anyone who tells you otherwise wants ten percent of your shit.

[Wormwrath]

As things go however, it's likely that as Christianity fails Islam will only grow stronger.

How do you figure? It seems like people are rejecting Xianity because it's so oppressive and irrational. Seems like that and Islam would go down together. If you mean it's fueling our wars against predominantly Islamic nations, are you suggesting we need to keep those going?

Not to debate faith and belief here, but Christianity has been declared dead before, and the earth tamped down on its grave. It won't stay dead. Never does. The smart money--for those whose "Liberty plan A" is for Christianity to disappear--is to realize that the Christian religion generally (and particularly my own brand, Catholicism) is compatible with liberty. (I can prove it.)

If this is true, free people (especially Christians) should be proselytizing statist Christians to the pro-peace, live-and-let-live liberty message. That would be "plan B" and it could be more realistic than holding one's breath for "plan A." Liberty-minded Christians figure we can get along with the rest of the movement as long as we (and they) don't feel the need to meddle in other folks' business. I'm sure ya'll could forgive our irrationality, as long as we give up oppressing you.

[dalebert]

Wormwrath, you presume that people are expressing their views about Christianity simply because it's used to oppress people. But even that problem aside, people are going to continue to express opinions about major movements that seem irrational to them. Why? Because they seem irrational to them. And they might say why they seem irrational. They see lots of people engaged in practices that make no sense to them. Or they see an irrational belief being taught to really young kids before the kids are old enough to apply critical thinking to said thing and they might figure it would be a good idea to get other ideas out there publicly so the kid isn't TOTALLY immersed and secluded from other PsOV and might have some chance of coming to a different conclusion which is arguably a more rational one.

Cause aside from the liberty concerns, knowing the truth about the world around you is actually useful. If someone tells you there's giant dangerous dinosaurs outside the walls of the city, they can get you to do what they want without violence but rather via deception. For instance, they can keep you in the city and keep all the farmland outside to themselves. Even if they don't have ill intent for telling you that, and maybe they believe it but they're wrong, then you're still missing out on something reality could provide to you because you believe a fantasy that isn't so.

So when someone honestly and sincerely thinks your beliefs are irrational, it makes sense to say so and to say so publicly. I will always protect your right to your religion but I won't coddle you by stifling my opinion about it to make you more comfortable in your belief. It's not just my right to express my opinion, but I also think it's a good and healthy thing to do for everyone involved. And by the same logic, if you sincerely believe (this is just a for instance, I don't know the nuances of your beliefs) that people's souls will spend eternity in Heaven or Hell based on whether they believe your religion, then you should be evangelizing with every breath you take.

[Turd Ferguson]

.........replacing it with "HAY GUY, COME HANG OUT, WE'RE ALL FRIENDS HERE, DON'T YOU WANT FRIENDS? ALSO BUSINESS NETWORKING AND DATING TOO! ONLY TEN PERCENT YO! COME ON DOWN AND WATCH PASTOR BRAD PLAY DRUMS IN THIS REALLY MEAN ROCK BAND WE HAVE. WE DO COVERS OF VAN HALEN CIRCA 1984 AND CHANGE THE LYRICS. YOU SHOULD HEAR 'HOT FOR JESUS'!!!"

That seriously made me LOL in a way I haven't done in a long time.

I'm guessing you have personally been exposed to this shit, cuz you pretty much nailed it.

I was called out to one such place on a job where the "church" or whatever they like to call it.........rec center maybe, had an IT guy that screwed up their network so bad that I was getting multiple IP conflicts on just about every device I plugged my laptop into. So I fix the guys shit for him and hes somehow smitten with me and gives me the whole spiel, pretty much word for word the way you said it, minus the Van Halen thing. Business networking.....CHECK, hotties on demand.....CHECK, pastor in the band.......CHECK. I respectfully declined his offer to "come on down and check it out this Sunday!" and explained to him I wasn't into the whole gOD thing and he says "Oh, hey thats cool. Alot of our people came from that position. Thats the attraction."  *sigh*



Pretty impressive setup if I do say so myself. Soundboards at the back of the room with mixing equip and all sorts of stuff VPN'ed into some remote music software on a server where they can record tracks and share stuff with other locations. It was all FUBAR'ed though, cuz they hired an IT guy through their "business networking" connections that wasn't really an IT guy, but told them he was. I imagine he led them to believe that he was just so he could have access to some of the free flowing hippie pussy that frequented the place. He figured "eh, I'll just bullshit my way though it and they'll never know the diff." Yeah, that is till their shit stops talking with their other shit seamlessly.............. DOH!!!

Anyway, thanks for the LOLZ

[Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)]

Yeah, that is funny.  My synagogue has started offering services like that in addition to the more traditional reform services.  I prefer the more traditional services myself, but interestingly enough my dad gets a kick out of the new thing, even though many would guess it'd be the other way around.  But either way, they do the complete Shabbat services in a communal setting and do the Torah reading, and that's what the whole point is for most of us. 

I think the whole "new school religion" is kind of a joke and it does bother me a bit.  Especially with these ambiguous "Christian" churches who don't really seem to be teaching from the Bible anyways.  Who knows what they are really teaching at some of those places.  At least with my synagogue you read from the actual Torah so you can figure out your own interpretation yourself, I've been to one of these churches and while everyone seemed to be holding a Bible, nobody ever read a passage from it the entire service!  What's that about?

[Fred]

This new shit - all the ploys to attract young people sounds like its straight out of Francis Schaeffer's shit..

[Turd Ferguson]

while everyone seemed to be holding a Bible, nobody ever read a passage from it the entire service!  What's that about?

I think its some sort of psychological shield for many of them. Like "See this? This is my bible I carry around, so dont you question my faith......I know my shit."

[John Shaw]

That seriously made me LOL in a way I haven't done in a long time.

I'm guessing you have personally been exposed to this shit, cuz you pretty much nailed it.

I could tell you some stories. My sister got bit with the bug at sixteen or so, when she started dating her (now) husband. He dragged her in and latched on like a lamprey.

Mind you we never had religious instruction of any kind when I was a kid. My mother is an Italian Catholic who married a Welsh Episcopalian. Both parents were basically persona non grata in their respective faiths and never practiced anyhow. The first time I ever went into a church, I was maybe 8 or 9 and it was for a wedding. Episcopal wedding. Like Catholic only longer. Seems like the ceremony was several hours (My memory may be fuzzy here as it was 30 years ago and I was the type of kid to get bored with stupid shit PDQ.)

Anyway, I don't think I went into a church again until my sister and father each found gawd around the same time. Dad started going to a Kingdom Hall (Jehova's Witnesses) because the broad he was dating was one O' them, and my sister was going to a "Non-denominational" church, which means fuckin' BABTIST AS ALL FUCK WITH BETTER PR because of her man.

I was 11 or 12 at that point and to quote my own movie "*Sniff* *Sniff* AH SMELL BOOLSHIT."

IRL it wasn't Pastor Brad, it was Pastor Rocky (Seriously) and the youth group leader was his son, Rocky Jr. (Seriously) Rocky Jr. Was the one in the band, and Pastor Rocky (Sr.) would use his "Black belt" to "Break boards" to "Show the power god imbued into him."

They pressured the fuck out of me to get involved. Future brother in law had three brothers who were all near the same age. One time they literally stood in a circle around me telling me I HAD TO GO TO THE YOUTH GROUP along with Rocky Jr. outside the joint. I was actually afraid it was gonna turn into a beatdown. This was after forcing me to go to these lame assed plays that were designed to scare the shit out of teenagers but only bored and irritated me. Finally Rocky Jr. sez to me "Look, I'll make you a deal, promise you'll come to the youth group meeting and I'll never bug you about it again." with four dudes standing just a little too close to me in that circle.

In classic John fashion I defused the situation by saying exactly the right thing in front of these Jeezus freaks.

"If I never show up at this place again you'll never have the chance to bug me, will ya? Leave me alone and get out of my way." and then I kinda shoved past one of the dudes. (I may have started crying at this point. I was 11 or so after all and surrounded by 16-20 year olds.) They had the fucking nerve to act surprised and hurt. For several weeks after that my sister still dragged me along but I would stand around either just outside the preachy room (Whatever the fuck they call it, it was a huge fucking auditorium with a stage and a hard core P.A. system.) or out in front of the building. If anyone approached me pretty much the only thing I'd say was "I hate this place and I don't want to be here." and "Please leave me alone."

After doing this four or five times I became too much of an embarrassment and she stopped dragging me along. They prayed for me. Oh how I got to hear about how much they fucking prayed for me. Jesus fucking Christ on a V12 powered jackhammer rape dildo THEY PRAYED.

I think I already covered how I dealt with the Jehova's Witnesses in another thread.

[Fred]

Fire In The Hole - Steely Dan

[Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)]

while everyone seemed to be holding a Bible, nobody ever read a passage from it the entire service!  What's that about?

I think its some sort of psychological shield for many of them. Like "See this? This is my bible I carry around, so dont you question my faith......I know my shit."

Heh guess so.

Also they handed out fill in the blank documents for the congregation to complete quotes, from "how they felt would fit best".  It was all New Testament quotes so I couldn't tell ya anything about them.  I found that strange too.  Fill in the blanks can be very easily used to guide the quiz taker to certain concepts in a rigged fashion.  Seems weird to me.

At my synagogue we would just do the service,  including the reading of the week (the entire Torah is read through each year assuming you attend Shabbat every week or do your own home study, so it's not like it's just a cherry picked passage) and then have a moment of silence to consider the passage before the 13 year old who was doing his Bar Mitzvah ceremony would give his opinion on it and then the Rabbi would give his opinion on it, no silly fill in the blanks stuff or whatever.  Then we'd do the blessing of the bread and the wine and have a "restful" day afterwards.  If you wanted you could go to the Torah study session and argue with people about your interpretation, and believe me there were always vehement arguments.

[John Shaw]

I think the whole "new school religion" is kind of a joke and it does bother me a bit.  Especially with these ambiguous "Christian" churches who don't really seem to be teaching from the Bible anyways.  Who knows what they are really teaching at some of those places.  At least with my synagogue you read from the actual Torah so you can figure out your own interpretation yourself, I've been to one of these churches and while everyone seemed to be holding a Bible, nobody ever read a passage from it the entire service!  What's that about?

Most of them use the Dribble Bibble more than that.

The 'ambiguous "Christian" churches' are all Babtist and make no mistake.

Here's how it goes - Preacherman finds a verse, reads it, then gives a "Talk" about that particular verse and how it applies to YOU. He does this without any context to the preceding or following text. Each verse is used as if it were a complete concept with meaning outside of whatever lame story it was part of.

Also, the Preacherman makes sure everyone knows of all the individual stories and then tells them with his own spin on them. You can mention any particular Bibble story by semi-title (Joseph and his Coat, Jonah and the Whale etc) and then riff offa that for a couple hours all Dukes of Hazzard Narrator style.

example- "Well Ol' Jonah you, know, he done got et by a whale right?" (Audience confirms this) "Now you all know what happened when he got et up doncha?" (Audience confirms knowledge and approves) etc.

Of course odds are high that the audience is more likely to know what they know about "good old Jonah" by what they've been told previously rather than by what they've read, because a huge chunk of religion has always been more about oral tradition anyhow.

The whole point of all of these lil' pearls of wisdom is to make you either:

A. Feel like shit.
B. Think preacherman is clever how he makes all those interesting connections between this lame assed older than dirt story and your own life, which actually matters.

So it's not really about the Bibble at all, it's about what preacherman thinks the Bibble MEANS.

[Fred]

while everyone seemed to be holding a Bible, nobody ever read a passage from it the entire service!  What's that about?

I think its some sort of psychological shield for many of them. Like "See this? This is my bible I carry around, so dont you question my faith......I know my shit."

Heh guess so.

Also they handed out fill in the blank documents for the congregation to complete quotes, from "how they felt would fit best".  It was all New Testament quotes so I couldn't tell ya anything about them.  I found that strange too.  Fill in the blanks can be very easily used to guide the quiz taker to certain concepts in a rigged fashion.  Seems weird to me.

At my synagogue we would just do the service,  including the reading of the week (the entire Torah is read through each year assuming you attend Shabbat every week or do your own home study, so it's not like it's just a cherry picked passage) and then have a moment of silence to consider the passage before the 13 year old who was doing his Bar Mitzvah ceremony would give his opinion on it and then the Rabbi would give his opinion on it, no silly fill in the blanks stuff or whatever.  Then we'd do the blessing of the bread and the wine and have a "restful" day afterwards.  If you wanted you could go to the Torah study session and argue with people about your interpretation, and believe me there were always vehement arguments.

Sam, what do you get out of this?  I'm sincere.  Is it a history lesson cuz of your heritage?