Apparently, I best be watchin' mah step, boss.

[Cognitive Dissident]

Gee, I'm sorta offended you didn't find a reason to rip on me, too.  You ripped on just about everyone else.

I didn't mention anyone who isn't a mod... so why ask this?

Did you want to be fair and acknowledge that I have also been ripped on?

Did you miss the bits where I said I'm not offended by BJ or Shaw, if it turns out they did the bans?

Am I not supposed to say anything about the obvious because those who I am "ripping on" are Mods? Mods who have said explicitly that they do not wish to be treated differently because they are mods? Yet who act differently (Specifically Joy & Brasky) ?

Are you not saying anything critical about it because you think I'm wrong or because you don't want to be the next person singled out, like alaric has been? things changed for me here after I objected to the harassment of/banning of Richard, Alex, Dragline and a couple others. Now alaric gets a ban because he objected to my ban. Pattern not clear to you yet?

Since you asked though - I'm surprised you're still here. You've been here ;longer than I, harassed more and seem to have just taken it, yet still you aren't treated warmly.

I'll lay it right on the line.  I've always considered you at troll.

[dalebert]

I'll lay it right on the line.  I've always considered you at troll.

I'll try to cut through the shit. In the end, that's what it ultimately comes down to. People are always asking "what is a troll". It comes down to motivations. You're never going to have a set of rules that will adequately define trolling. It's ultimately going to take a judgment call.

A troll tries to stir up shit and get a reaction out of people, but what makes them a troll is why they do it. A troll might just be the digital version of an attention-seeker, someone who craves any attention even if it's bad, like a kid who throws tantrums or the drunk at a party. A troll might be doing it purely for entertainment, realizing how much fun you can have when you figure out how to push people's buttons and manipulate them. Or the troll might do it to feel better about themselves because they're a loser IRL. Trolls are a sort of emotional parasite because they're having their fun or temporary self-esteem boost at the expense of everyone else. In any case, the motivations for stirring up shit are incredibly selfish and take place at the expense of others. That's why they ultimately will be the death of a forum and why the forums that stay really active and vital are fairly heavily moderated.

I'm sure we all know IRL drama queens, attention whores, high-maintenance friends, etc. They can literally be exhausting to be around. I've heard some people described as emotional energy vortexes. That's what a troll is in the virtual world.

But someone can also appear to be "stirring up shit" anytime they post something that inspires cognitive dissonance to make a valid point. A discussion on a touchy subject can get heated and might even get kind of personal, insults going back and forth, etc. It's still not necessarily trolling if the motivations are sincere.

That said, this is not to say I'm agreeing that Hellbilly is actually a troll. If he's a sincere racist (which I realize he claims not to be and I'm not arguing it right now), then that could even be evidence that he's not a troll. If his motivations, for instance, were to argue for racism intellectually and not just to stir up shit, then that's not trolling. It would, however, be another very good reason to ban someone if you don't want a racist atmosphere to develop here. If someone manages to get a lot of pro-racism discussion going, regardless of whether it makes any sense or not, you will literally attract more racists and fewer people who are turned off by racism and it will snowball. FTL would become another Stormfront forum.

[Cognitive Dissident]

FWIW, I'd consider "pro-racism" advocacy trolling, because it's a form of collectivism and inconsistent with liberty.

[dalebert]

FWIW, I'd consider "pro-racism" advocacy trolling, because it's a form of collectivism and inconsistent with liberty.

Trolling is a subset of the set "bad things". Just because something is arguably bad does not make it trolling. Killing people is arguably bad and inconsistent with liberty, but it is definitely not trolling.

[dalebert]

I will add this, though. Someone who says racist stuph just to stir up shit and maybe doesn't even believe it, or does believe it but knows the conversation isn't going anywhere, THAT's trolling.

[Cognitive Dissident]

FWIW, I'd consider "pro-racism" advocacy trolling, because it's a form of collectivism and inconsistent with liberty.

Trolling is a subset of the set "bad things". Just because something is arguably bad does not make it trolling. Killing people is arguably bad and inconsistent with liberty, but it is definitely not trolling.

I will add this, though. Someone who says racist stuph just to stir up shit and maybe doesn't even believe it, or does believe it but knows the conversation isn't going anywhere, THAT's trolling.

Well, pushing a clearly illibertarian idea on a liberty-oriented message system (perhaps, beyond the first rejection, and additionally against the TOS), I'd still call trolling.  It's sorta like sexual harassment--if someone tells you once they don't want your advances, that's supposed to be enough.  Beyond that, it's seemingly obvious.  It'd be one thing if you "had no way to know."  Racists never had that excuse here.

[hellbilly]

I too am eager to put these issues to a rest.

That is why I have asked multiple times for anyone here to point out one single piece of text anywhere in this forum that I have said something racist. Perhaps you can, Dale, since you said I argue "for racism".

There are what.. 6 or 7 of you openly calling me out as a racist yet not one of you can back up the claim, and I'm the one who's being called a troll?

Perhaps this is a new form of multidimensional logic that I am unfamiliar with.

Thank you, blackie, for the nod.

[Fred]

I'm not a mod, but I can say for sure that you're not a Racist!  the rest is just argument for the sake of argument.

[hellbilly]

Thanks Fred. You've just sealed your fate on the BBS with that comment though. Not that you haven't already experienced a touch of the bias.

[Cognitive Dissident]

I too am eager to put these issues to a rest.

That is why I have asked multiple times for anyone here to point out one single piece of text anywhere in this forum that I have said something racist. Perhaps you can, Dale, since you said I argue "for racism".

There are what.. 6 or 7 of you openly calling me out as a racist yet not one of you can back up the claim, and I'm the one who's being called a troll?

Perhaps this is a new form of multidimensional logic that I am unfamiliar with.

Thank you, blackie, for the nod.

Were it a year ago, before the big purge, I might be interested in doing your library work for you, searching out every infraction, but I do recall that you and dragline and another person had a great deal of fun over an extended time, turning many issues into racism.  I'll let you know next time.  It's a matter of fact that I bit my lip, figuratively speaking, over much of that time.  In the past, particularly when it was stated policy, I reported such posts.

Right off the top--most of these alone don't scream "racist," but the preponderance (and there are potentially dozens more) does:
http://bbs.freetalklive.com/the-show/the-race-show-10-5-09/msg568427/#msg568427
http://bbs.freetalklive.com/general/chimpin'-out-in-ct/msg608221/#msg608221
http://bbs.freetalklive.com/general/why-isn't-this-sort-of-event-covered-by-the-msm/msg629978/#msg629978 note the edit
http://bbs.freetalklive.com/general/why-isn't-this-sort-of-event-covered-by-the-msm/msg630039/#msg630039
http://bbs.freetalklive.com/general/why-isn't-this-sort-of-event-covered-by-the-msm/msg630118/#msg630118
http://bbs.freetalklive.com/general/why-isn't-this-sort-of-event-covered-by-the-msm/msg630197/#msg630197

From my near daily drives through the ghetto you're analysis of fat white girls who like to gobble down black dicks is precise. I have seen some thin white girls with black dudes too, but they have the appearance of being on a Meth diet. It's totally a win win situation as the black guy gets a social promotion and the white girl gets to pretend that she's truly cherished by a man.

The only women I know personally who have fucked black guys all seem a little screwed up. But I'll admit it - I'm a separatist. I do not mix with upper class people. So I don't personally know any white women who are attractive, wealthy, well balanced and somehow have just met the perfect black guy to settle down with.

http://bbs.freetalklive.com/general/possible-celebrity-for-the-fsp/msg588632/#msg588632

Neither character scores very high on the scale of blackness, no matter how funky that monkey dances.

If black culture were represented in a more realistic way such as that visit to prison, then people may be able to deal with the topic of race in a more realistic way... as opposed to what's predominantly done now, which is to have a black cartoon character who's blackness ends in it's coloring.

http://bbs.freetalklive.com/general/the-question-thread/msg630120/#msg630120
http://bbs.freetalklive.com/general/tough-guys-only-in-this-thread/msg569925/#msg569925
http://bbs.freetalklive.com/general/muslims-slaughter-a-bunch-of-christians-(mostly-women-children)what-a-shocker/msg593176/#msg593176
http://bbs.freetalklive.com/general/muslims-slaughter-a-bunch-of-christians-(mostly-women-children)what-a-shocker/msg593292/#msg593292
http://bbs.freetalklive.com/general/muslims-slaughter-a-bunch-of-christians-(mostly-women-children)what-a-shocker/msg594311/#msg594311
http://bbs.freetalklive.com/general/muslims-slaughter-a-bunch-of-christians-(mostly-women-children)what-a-shocker/msg594600/#msg594600
http://bbs.freetalklive.com/general/muslims-slaughter-a-bunch-of-christians-(mostly-women-children)what-a-shocker/msg594676/#msg594676  
Pretty much that whole thread is repulsive, suggesting that there are violent ethnicities and less violent ones.

You might be racist if.. you deny that black folks in particular aren't dealing with a certain brand of violence within ghetto communities daily... doled out to them by other black folks.

I'm sure there's lots more, in lots of other threads, but I'm not going to waste any more of my time going over what's obviously true.

[Fred]

oh shit!  ???

[dalebert]

Perhaps you can, Dale, since you said I argue "for racism".

Oh yeah? Quote me where I said that. I'll save you the trouble. My post speaks purely in hypotheticals. I even pointed that out explicitly for the slower people.

If he's a sincere racist (which I realize he claims not to be and I'm not arguing it right now), then that could even be evidence that he's not a troll. If his motivations, for instance, were to argue for racism intellectually and not just to stir up shit, then that's not trolling. It would, however, be another very good reason to ban someone if you don't want a racist atmosphere to develop here.

[hellbilly]

Thank you for the wonderful trip down memory lane WTFK. I encourage everyone to click and read all the links Ken was kind enough to post, as it should reduce the accusations.

My favorite one is this:

The only women I know personally who have fucked black guys all seem a little screwed up. But I'll admit it - I'm a separatist. I do not mix with upper class people. So I don't personally know any white women who are attractive, wealthy, well balanced and somehow have just met the perfect black guy to settle down with.

Sooo.. where's the racist part? I do not hate black people. No where in those threads or posts have I said I hate black people... or any other ethnic group.

Have I said something unpopular? You bet. That doesn't make it wrong.

Have I said something that Bill Cosby has also said? And TMONT (on YouTube)? You bet. Those black guys have their shit straight. Get this: I like those guys. I like the big black mama from Jamaica that hugs my kids when we eat at her shop regularly (a shop that was robbed, by a few black guys, recently). When I worked with a black supremacist a few years ago, I liked him and liked our open discussions on race. etc.

The use of the term "Chimpout" is a prime example of the problem I point out in many posts. Rather than become upset at the actual crimes being committed by groups of black folks, people become enraged over a term used to describe the attackers. That is fucked. up.

The football player who killed dogs... Complete outrage over it. One athlete, half dozen dogs deserves passionate rage.

Statistics indicate that black men are responsible for the majority of rapes and murder -- against all ethnic groups and including blacks too -- but apparently that's no big deal. Dead dogs, rage. Kill the fucker. Dead and/or raped humans.. social programs. Be nice. Poverty.

Whatevah gets you to sleep at night, I guess.

You expect me to address people acting savagely in a respectful way? Not gonna happen. I'm focusing on the realities of what's going on as opposed to a whitewashed (so to speak) vision of glorified diversity.

Crime in ghettos is at epidemic levels. No amount of white guilt, compassion or social programs is ever going to change that. But rational, direct, open discussion just might.

[hellbilly]

Perhaps you can, Dale, since you said I argue "for racism".

Oh yeah? Quote me where I said that. I'll save you the trouble. My post speaks purely in hypotheticals. I even pointed that out explicitly for the slower people.

If he's a sincere racist (which I realize he claims not to be and I'm not arguing it right now), then that could even be evidence that he's not a troll. If his motivations, for instance, were to argue for racism intellectually and not just to stir up shit, then that's not trolling. It would, however, be another very good reason to ban someone if you don't want a racist atmosphere to develop here.

I am totally wrong in this, and don't mind saying so. Sorry about that.

[Cognitive Dissident]

Thank you for the wonderful trip down memory lane WTFK. I encourage everyone to click and read all the links Ken was kind enough to post, as it should reduce the accusations.

My favorite one is this:

The only women I know personally who have fucked black guys all seem a little screwed up. But I'll admit it - I'm a separatist. I do not mix with upper class people. So I don't personally know any white women who are attractive, wealthy, well balanced and somehow have just met the perfect black guy to settle down with.

Sooo.. where's the racist part? I do not hate black people. No where in those threads or posts have I said I hate black people... or any other ethnic group.

Have I said something unpopular? You bet. That doesn't make it wrong.

Have I said something that Bill Cosby has also said? And TMONT (on YouTube)? You bet. Those black guys have their shit straight. Get this: I like those guys. I like the big black mama from Jamaica that hugs my kids when we eat at her shop regularly (a shop that was robbed, by a few black guys, recently). When I worked with a black supremacist a few years ago, I liked him and liked our open discussions on race. etc.

The use of the term "Chimpout" is a prime example of the problem I point out in many posts. Rather than become upset at the actual crimes being committed by groups of black folks, people become enraged over a term used to describe the attackers. That is fucked. up.

The football player who killed dogs... Complete outrage over it. One athlete, half dozen dogs deserves passionate rage.

Statistics indicate that black men are responsible for the majority of rapes and murder -- against all ethnic groups and including blacks too -- but apparently that's no big deal. Dead dogs, rage. Kill the fucker. Dead and/or raped humans.. social programs. Be nice. Poverty.

Whatevah gets you to sleep at night, I guess.

You expect me to address people acting savagely in a respectful way? Not gonna happen. I'm focusing on the realities of what's going on as opposed to a whitewashed (so to speak) vision of glorified diversity.

Crime in ghettos is at epidemic levels. No amount of white guilt, compassion or social programs is ever going to change that. But rational, direct, open discussion just might.

Rationalize all you want--it's all out there--you sometimes choose your words carefully, as in the one sample you chose, and others not.  Your long history makes it obvious what you are.

By the way, this was the whole quote:

From my near daily drives through the ghetto you're analysis of fat white girls who like to gobble down black dicks is precise. I have seen some thin white girls with black dudes too, but they have the appearance of being on a Meth diet. It's totally a win win situation as the black guy gets a social promotion and the white girl gets to pretend that she's truly cherished by a man.

The only women I know personally who have fucked black guys all seem a little screwed up. But I'll admit it - I'm a separatist. I do not mix with upper class people. So I don't personally know any white women who are attractive, wealthy, well balanced and somehow have just met the perfect black guy to settle down with.

Gee...looks like you left the interesting parts out.