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Author Topic: Activism: how far would you go?  (Read 33977 times)

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rabidfurby

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Re: Activism: how far would you go?
« Reply #75 on: February 07, 2006, 12:09:56 PM »

a persons exclusive use of a particular location via a title IMPOSES a legal and monetary OBLIGATION on those being excluded violating their absolute rights to labor and thus to self-ownership..

Your exclusive use of the carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen atoms in your body excludes my right to perform labor using said atoms. Thus, you have an obligation to compensate me and everyone else in the world.
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BenTucker

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Re: Activism: how far would you go?
« Reply #76 on: February 07, 2006, 12:12:12 PM »

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The excluded have no right to my land

the excluders have no right to my wages.

there are only two choices here that pays - excluders or excluded...

in the case of a lien on the unimproved land value (economic rent) the excluder never "pays" anything they just don't get to collect wages from the excluded (a tax not in name but in deed)...

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They also have a choice, they can buy/homestead land and then not be excluded

the price they pay includes the economic rent capitalized at the point of sale to the seller (excluder)
a right of self-ownership and to labor products does not have to be gifted or purchased.

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Take your socialism...

socialism is generally thought of as the collective owner of the means of production (land, labor, capital)

collective ownership is the opposite of ownership in common.

all I am suggesting that one aspect of a bundle of 5 ownership rights in land remain owned in common as an individual right shared directly between neighbors in order to protect the self-ownership and labor rights of all.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2006, 12:22:34 PM by BenTucker »
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BenTucker

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Re: Activism: how far would you go?
« Reply #77 on: February 07, 2006, 12:14:20 PM »

a persons exclusive use of a particular location via a title IMPOSES a legal and monetary OBLIGATION on those being excluded violating their absolute rights to labor and thus to self-ownership..

Your exclusive use of the carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen atoms in your body excludes my right to perform labor using said atoms. Thus, you have an obligation to compensate me and everyone else in the world.

the salient question my friend is do any of those carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen atoms have any economic rent attached to them?

the answer is clearly no because my use of said atoms leaves enough and as good in common for others (Locke's proviso)...
« Last Edit: February 07, 2006, 12:19:36 PM by BenTucker »
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rabidfurby

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Re: Activism: how far would you go?
« Reply #78 on: February 07, 2006, 12:23:42 PM »

the salient question my friend is do any of those carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen atoms have any economic rent attached to them?

the answer is clearly no because my use of said atoms leaves enough and as good in common for others...

Then why doesn't my use of a plot of land leave enough for others? When you get right down to it, the supply of atoms in the universe is just as finite as the supply of land in the universe.

What if I were to venture out into deep, deep space and use a gigantic space vacuum to suck up a bunch of galaxies and dark matter and compress it into a super-duper-massive black hole? Once a black hole is created, there is no known way of releasing the matter contained within it. I would thus be excluding everyone in the universe from the use of those elementary particles. Do I owe "economic rent" to every human and other sentient life form in the universe?
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BenTucker

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Re: Activism: how far would you go?
« Reply #79 on: February 07, 2006, 12:29:16 PM »

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Then why doesn't my use of a plot of land leave enough for others? When you get right down to it, the supply of atoms in the universe is just as finite as the supply of land in the universe.

because land is highly variable in quality across the surface whereas as far as I know an atom of hydrogen is the same on earth as it is on the moon.
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eukreign

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Re: Activism: how far would you go?
« Reply #80 on: February 07, 2006, 12:44:52 PM »

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The excluded have no right to my land
the excluders have no right to my wages.

I don't want your wages. You CHOSE to give them to me instead of buying/homesteading land.
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BenTucker

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Re: Activism: how far would you go?
« Reply #81 on: February 07, 2006, 12:49:38 PM »

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The excluded have no right to my land
the excluders have no right to my wages.

I don't want your wages. You CHOSE to give them to me instead of buying/homesteading land.

you mean like a prisoner having a choice of which cell to occupy is freedom?

don't you realize that in buying land the price you pay includes all the economic rent paid at once to the seller?

and prior to the excluder selling, the exclusive use restricts the supply available for purchase and effects the price upwards as populations increase?
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eukreign

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Re: Activism: how far would you go?
« Reply #82 on: February 07, 2006, 01:28:29 PM »

you mean like a prisoner having a choice of which cell to occupy is freedom?

I'm sorry but that's a moronic analogy. Living on your own land is not prison, choosing to have someone else to provide you with shelter and upkeep of the shelter/land is also not prison, it's a luxury.
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BenTucker

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Re: Activism: how far would you go?
« Reply #83 on: February 07, 2006, 01:46:18 PM »

you mean like a prisoner having a choice of which cell to occupy is freedom?

I'm sorry but that's a moronic analogy. Living on your own land is not prison, choosing to have someone else to provide you with shelter and upkeep of the shelter/land is also not prison, it's a luxury.

you missed the point - no one "volunteers" their wages because all land is legally claimed although not all occupied...there is no choice in the matter.
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eukreign

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Re: Activism: how far would you go?
« Reply #84 on: February 07, 2006, 01:52:16 PM »

you missed the point - no one "volunteers" their wages because all land is legally claimed although not all occupied...there is no choice in the matter.

Most of the land is claimed by government. Get rid of government and we will have plenty of land to go around, there is enough land in the US for all of us to have our 100 acre lots.
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Laetitia

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Re: Activism: how far would you go?
« Reply #85 on: February 07, 2006, 02:02:24 PM »

NH is perfect place for BenTucker to purchase "property". Since he believes his "ownership" of the common land excludes someone else, he can contribute the appropriate amount to the NH coffers, for the benefit of those disadvantaged. Isn't NH the state where the governor set up the "Tax Me More" fund?
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Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

BenTucker

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Re: Activism: how far would you go?
« Reply #86 on: February 07, 2006, 02:12:08 PM »

you missed the point - no one "volunteers" their wages because all land is legally claimed although not all occupied...there is no choice in the matter.

Most of the land is claimed by government. Get rid of government and we will have plenty of land to go around, there is enough land in the US for all of us to have our 100 acre lots.

are they all of equal quality so no one is economically disadvantaged?
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BenTucker

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Re: Activism: how far would you go?
« Reply #87 on: February 07, 2006, 02:14:22 PM »

NH is perfect place for BenTucker to purchase "property". Since he believes his "ownership" of the common land excludes someone else, he can contribute the appropriate amount to the NH coffers, for the benefit of those disadvantaged. Isn't NH the state where the governor set up the "Tax Me More" fund?

if the economic rent is collected and then spent by the state rather than shared directly between neighbors then it is NOT owned in common but instead collectively.

I am not a collectivist.
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fisher

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Re: Activism: how far would you go?
« Reply #88 on: February 07, 2006, 02:31:31 PM »

Isn't NH the state where the governor set up the "Tax Me More" fund?
Benson said he did.
http://www.politicsnh.com/archives/pindell/2003/march/3_07.shtml

and the form is here:
http://www.politicsnh.com/archives/pindell/2003/march/taxmemore.pdf

But I contacted Benson's office to have an official form sent to me, so I could give benson my $.02, and they told me it wasn't real, and Benson is a big liar.
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ladyattis

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Re: Activism: how far would you go?
« Reply #89 on: February 07, 2006, 02:34:15 PM »

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the concept of a lien asserts an OBLIGATION. What obligation has eukreign agreed to within his scenerio?

a persons exclusive use of a particular location via a title IMPOSES a legal and monetary OBLIGATION on those being excluded violating their absolute rights to labor and thus to self-ownership.
What obligation do I impose on you if I exclude you from anything? Say, a genetic female, and the only one left alive. You and all the other genetic males have to make a choice. Either YOU OWN HER BODY IN COMMON, being that she is scarce, being the only female left on Earth, or you accept the reality that her body cannot be owned by anyone but her since she is the current occupier. According to your logic, this is the same issue as with land. The occupation of a finite domain/resource/X, which according to you should be or will be shared equally among everyone. So, by that logic, in my scenerio it is moral, according to YOUR ARGUMENT, for all male to have their share of the single sole female left on Earth even if she resists and protests.

The same can be said for a homesteader that resists and protests your lien. Your lien is force, get over it. You yield to the collective. I yield to the individual. Thus, comes the crux. Either you accept that individuals are the prime cause of all acts on their own, and thus are sovereign. Or you accept that the society is the prime cause of all acts, thus it is the only sovereign and all individuals are its subordinates. Which will it be, Benny?


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What loan does eukreign pay in his scenerio of being self-sufficient?

the socially created economic rent is then made equally available to all members of a community in the form of a non-interest bearing "loan" that does not have to be repaid.
Then why do you impose a lien on eukreign's hypothetical homestead that is self-sufficient?


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I mean, think about it. I am never free to move about as I wish and do as I wish for the simple fact that others can easily impede me.

in a state of nature there would be "perfect freedom".

There is nothing in Nature that is conceptual. There are only concretes. Percepts are also not found in Nature, they are the resultant of concretes as well.


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in my system no one would be economically disadvantaged no matter where anyone else located (which means by reason you will be excluded since two people can not stand in the same location at the same time) - a state of "equal liberty" the next best thing to "perfect freedom"

There is no equality in liberty. Liberty is the state of being free of obligations, period and end of story. It's like saying we're all equally pregnant, yet that doesn't follow either. Males can't get preggers, so should women pay for all men to get uteruses to be equally preggers? :lol: Or how about we're all equally white/black/yellow? Wanna look like MJ? LOL. See, equality in liberty leads to logical and moral absurdities. Thus, your whole argument is false. Thanks for trying, but you're like a BRANDENDROID left in your own logic loop that you will not accept its refutation.

-- Bridget
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