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Laetitia

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Re: Activism: how far would you go?
« Reply #45 on: February 06, 2006, 01:53:10 PM »

no those are from the social freedom side of the equation...I am specifically referring to the individualist anarchist tradition - the mutualists and georgists.

Not the georgists again. At least you included the mutualists this time. I followed the wikipedia recommended links at the bottom of the page, starting with Georgist. The choices become less & less attractive.

Georgist ---> Mutualist.
Mutualist ---> Socialist Economics.
Socialist Economics ---> Feminist Economics, Labour Economics, Marxist Economics.
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TN_FSP

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Re: Activism: how far would you go?
« Reply #46 on: February 06, 2006, 01:57:08 PM »


no those are from the social freedom side of the equation...I am specifically referring to the individualist anarchist tradition - the mutualists and georgists.

I agree that the main for of taxation should be a very low tax on all land, housing, and buildings.  However, I have not found an georgist that did not annoy me to death with their theories.  If a georgist wants to create a free-market socialist system inside NH, I encourage them to do so.

Where do you suggest we look to find georgists that are libertarians on social issues and will not use force to apply their georgist theories on economic issues?
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BenTucker

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Re: Activism: how far would you go?
« Reply #47 on: February 06, 2006, 02:03:09 PM »


no those are from the social freedom side of the equation...I am specifically referring to the individualist anarchist tradition - the mutualists and georgists.

I agree that the main for of taxation should be a very low tax on all land, housing, and buildings.  However, I have not found an georgist that did not annoy me to death with their theories.  If a georgist wants to create a free-market socialist system inside NH, I encourage them to do so.

Where do you suggest we look to find georgists that are libertarians on social issues and will not use force to apply their georgist theories on economic issues?

the claim they are making is that our current land tenure system is using force today (titles backed by the state) where the economic rent is forceably extracted from those being excluded - immediately for tenants and in the future for buyers.
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BenTucker

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Re: Activism: how far would you go?
« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2006, 02:07:07 PM »

no those are from the social freedom side of the equation...I am specifically referring to the individualist anarchist tradition - the mutualists and georgists.

Not the georgists again. At least you included the mutualists this time. I followed the wikipedia recommended links at the bottom of the page, starting with Georgist. The choices become less & less attractive.

Georgist ---> Mutualist.
Mutualist ---> Socialist Economics.
Socialist Economics ---> Feminist Economics, Labour Economics, Marxist Economics.

well that is a utterly banal approach to a very important subject...
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TN_FSP

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Re: Activism: how far would you go?
« Reply #49 on: February 06, 2006, 02:12:44 PM »


no those are from the social freedom side of the equation...I am specifically referring to the individualist anarchist tradition - the mutualists and georgists.

I agree that the main for of taxation should be a very low tax on all land, housing, and buildings.  However, I have not found an georgist that did not annoy me to death with their theories.  If a georgist wants to create a free-market socialist system inside NH, I encourage them to do so.

Where do you suggest we look to find georgists that are libertarians on social issues and will not use force to apply their georgist theories on economic issues?

the claim they are making is that our current land tenure system is using force today (titles backed by the state) where the economic rent is forceably extracted from those being excluded - immediately for tenants and in the future for buyers.

So, do you know or anywhere to find lots of people very similar to the ones I posted about?
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Laetitia

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Re: Activism: how far would you go?
« Reply #50 on: February 06, 2006, 02:31:40 PM »

no those are from the social freedom side of the equation...I am specifically referring to the individualist anarchist tradition - the mutualists and georgists.

Not the georgists again. At least you included the mutualists this time. I followed the wikipedia recommended links at the bottom of the page, starting with Georgist. The choices become less & less attractive.
Georgist ---> Mutualist.
Mutualist ---> Socialist Economics.
Socialist Economics ---> Feminist Economics, Labour Economics, Marxist Economics.

well that is a utterly banal approach to a very important subject...

I could talk around it in an infinite spiral if you like. If the Georgist approach works for you, great. Set up your own system with like minded individuals - just don't expect me to agree that your mutual social club has any rights to my property.
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BenTucker

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Re: Activism: how far would you go?
« Reply #51 on: February 06, 2006, 02:46:10 PM »

no those are from the social freedom side of the equation...I am specifically referring to the individualist anarchist tradition - the mutualists and georgists.

Not the georgists again. At least you included the mutualists this time. I followed the wikipedia recommended links at the bottom of the page, starting with Georgist. The choices become less & less attractive.
Georgist ---> Mutualist.
Mutualist ---> Socialist Economics.
Socialist Economics ---> Feminist Economics, Labour Economics, Marxist Economics.

well that is a utterly banal approach to a very important subject...

I could talk around it in an infinite spiral if you like. If the Georgist approach works for you, great. Set up your own system with like minded individuals - just don't expect me to agree that your mutual social club has any rights to my property.

your rights to your landed property include a legal and monetary claim (backed by the state to enforce your title) on the wages of those you are excluding - how exactly is that libertarian?
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Laetitia

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Re: Activism: how far would you go?
« Reply #52 on: February 06, 2006, 02:58:52 PM »

your rights to your landed property include a legal and monetary claim (backed by the state to enforce your title) on the wages of those you are excluding - how exactly is that libertarian?
This is the same collectivist - excuse me - common property argument you use elsewhere to say property is theft. If anyone wants to read through the very l-o-n-g diatribe anything I type will inspire, feel free to pop over to BenTucker's "Property is Theft" thread.
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TN_FSP

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Re: Activism: how far would you go?
« Reply #53 on: February 06, 2006, 03:32:37 PM »

OK, so you claim that the FSP is doomed if we do not recruit very pro-freedom georgist and I ask you where they are and then nothing.  Is the FSP doomed because we are not recruiting people that do not exist?
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BenTucker

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Re: Activism: how far would you go?
« Reply #54 on: February 06, 2006, 03:51:19 PM »

OK, so you claim that the FSP is doomed if we do not recruit very pro-freedom georgist and I ask you where they are and then nothing.  Is the FSP doomed because we are not recruiting people that do not exist?

I am saying if you took this approach (along with a similar critique of corporations) you could build a bridge to the anti-authoritarian left on economic issues who then could be convinced to give up on using the state's force to thieve labor-based property...
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TN_FSP

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Re: Activism: how far would you go?
« Reply #55 on: February 06, 2006, 03:54:59 PM »

OK, so you claim that the FSP is doomed if we do not recruit very pro-freedom georgist and I ask you where they are and then nothing.  Is the FSP doomed because we are not recruiting people that do not exist?

I am saying if you took this approach (along with a similar critique of corporations) you could build a bridge to the anti-authoritarian left on economic issues who then could be convinced to give up on using the state's force to thieve labor-based property...

OK.  Where is a large pool of these easy to convert people?
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BenTucker

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Re: Activism: how far would you go?
« Reply #56 on: February 06, 2006, 03:55:43 PM »

your rights to your landed property include a legal and monetary claim (backed by the state to enforce your title) on the wages of those you are excluding - how exactly is that libertarian?
This is the same collectivist - excuse me - common property argument you use elsewhere to say property is theft. If anyone wants to read through the very l-o-n-g diatribe anything I type will inspire, feel free to pop over to BenTucker's "Property is Theft" thread.

Proudhon wrote:

1. property is liberty
2. property is theft

and then explained the differences between the meaning of term "property" in his use as an individualist anarchist.

Benjamin Tucker was a follower of Proudhon...
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BenTucker

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Re: Activism: how far would you go?
« Reply #57 on: February 06, 2006, 03:58:55 PM »

OK, so you claim that the FSP is doomed if we do not recruit very pro-freedom georgist and I ask you where they are and then nothing.  Is the FSP doomed because we are not recruiting people that do not exist?

I am saying if you took this approach (along with a similar critique of corporations) you could build a bridge to the anti-authoritarian left on economic issues who then could be convinced to give up on using the state's force to thieve labor-based property...

OK.  Where is a large pool of these easy to convert people?

nothing is easy but it is the only viable option to succeed.
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TN_FSP

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Re: Activism: how far would you go?
« Reply #58 on: February 06, 2006, 04:03:55 PM »

OK, so you claim that the FSP is doomed if we do not recruit very pro-freedom georgist and I ask you where they are and then nothing.  Is the FSP doomed because we are not recruiting people that do not exist?

I am saying if you took this approach (along with a similar critique of corporations) you could build a bridge to the anti-authoritarian left on economic issues who then could be convinced to give up on using the state's force to thieve labor-based property...

OK.  Where is a large pool of these easy to convert people?

nothing is easy but it is the only viable option to succeed.

I am doing everything I can to find people and tell them of the FSP.
I am spreading the message on Myspace, on anarchist websites, and others.
I plan to work 8 Warped Tours, the most popular traveling music festival for young people, in 2006 and will try to organize others to work 40 more Warped Tours.
I am creating state vs state PDFs that compare NH to other states.

I don't think people like you are talking about are alive.  However, if they are, I will try to reach them.  Instead of talking about how freedom is doomed, you could find a way to make it not doomed.
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fisher

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Re: Activism: how far would you go?
« Reply #59 on: February 06, 2006, 04:14:17 PM »

Just because the FSP is doomed does not mean freedom is doomed  :lol:
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