Welcome to the Free Talk Live bulletin board system!
This board is closed to new users and new posts.  Thank you to all our great mods and users over the years.  Details here.
185859 Posts in 9829 Topics by 1371 Members
Latest Member: cjt26
Home Help
+  The Free Talk Live BBS
|-+  Free Talk Live
| |-+  General
| | |-+  A Question to the Athiests
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 12   Go Down

Author Topic: A Question to the Athiests  (Read 40357 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Diogenes The Cynic

  • Cynic. Pessimist. Skeptic. Jerk.
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3727
    • View Profile
Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2009, 02:24:01 PM »

How does belief in a god affect your ethics Cynic?

The ethical guide I live by is my understanding of what G-d expects from me.

except all the shit the bible says god expects from you that you don't agree with, in which case non of that stuff actually applies.

All Christians/Jews pick and choose from the bible/Torah, shit there are so many contradictions its impossible not to.. Everyone picks their own morals, its just religionists pick an old book to back up the shit they like, and pretend they got them from a higher being.

What the heck are you talking about?

Why are you trying to get us off topic?
Logged
I am looking for an honest man. -Diogenes The Cynic

Dude, I thought you were a spambot for like a week. You posted like a spambot. You failed the Turing test.

                                -Dennis Goddard

Diogenes The Cynic

  • Cynic. Pessimist. Skeptic. Jerk.
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3727
    • View Profile
Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2009, 02:27:19 PM »

Ethics help society function, agreed, but for a person who is entirely selfish, they would do all that they could thats unethical that wouldn't get them thrown into jail, or otherwise excluded. I also hold the notion that an extremely rational person would be self-absorbed, and selfish.

And, almost certainly, very very lonely. They probably couldn't pass on their selfish genes to many, if any, offspring.

A truly selfish person would wear a condom.

That way, they never have to take care of anyone else. Being selfish and all.
Logged
I am looking for an honest man. -Diogenes The Cynic

Dude, I thought you were a spambot for like a week. You posted like a spambot. You failed the Turing test.

                                -Dennis Goddard

Rillion

  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6804
    • View Profile
Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2009, 02:45:43 PM »

A truly selfish person would wear a condom.

That way, they never have to take care of anyone else. Being selfish and all.

I don't know; some of the most selfish people I've ever met have been mothers. 
Logged

mikehz

  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8033
    • View Profile
    • Day by Day
Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2009, 08:00:41 PM »

Ethics help society function, agreed, but for a person who is entirely selfish, they would do all that they could thats unethical that wouldn't get them thrown into jail, or otherwise excluded. I also hold the notion that an extremely rational person would be self-absorbed, and selfish.

And, almost certainly, very very lonely. They probably couldn't pass on their selfish genes to many, if any, offspring.

A truly selfish person would wear a condom.

That way, they never have to take care of anyone else. Being selfish and all.

But, who are they going to use the condom with?

Oh--I mean other than a prostitute.
Logged
"Force always attracts men of low morality." Albert Einstein

fatcat

  • Guest
Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2009, 09:21:48 AM »

How does belief in a god affect your ethics Cynic?

The ethical guide I live by is my understanding of what G-d expects from me.

except all the shit the bible says god expects from you that you don't agree with, in which case non of that stuff actually applies.

All Christians/Jews pick and choose from the bible/Torah, shit there are so many contradictions its impossible not to.. Everyone picks their own morals, its just religionists pick an old book to back up the shit they like, and pretend they got them from a higher being.

What the heck are you talking about?

Why are you trying to get us off topic?

No, we're talking about morality/ethics, you're saying that your ethics are based on what you think God expects from you, and now I'm saying that you don't follow everything god expects from you. (i.e. you pick and choose just like everyone else)

It clearly says in Leviticus you should put men who sleep with other men to death.

It says nothing about "only if they're jews living in israel" or whatever bullshit excuse you used last time i brought this up. You don't follow it because deep down you know its a bullshit ruling, but you can't bring yourself to say something in the Torah is wrong, so you just ignore it.

Hell, lets even say it only applies to Jews in Israel. Why aren't they doing what god expects them to do there? How would you feel if Israel decided they weren't going to punish murderers and thieves any more?

If people can use the "it was a different time and cultural background" to excuse why they don't kill gays, why can't they use it for murderers or kosher?

Classic pick and choosing. You pick the parts you like, and you disregard or disobey the parts you don't.

How about stoning unruly children?
How it being okay to beat slaves as long as you don't kill them? (please don't try to act that this was talking about voluntary servitude)
Do you follow all the rules on jerking off aswell?

How about menstrual cycles?
Quote
If a woman has a discharge, and the discharge from her body is blood, she will be in her state of niddah for seven days. Whoever touches her will be unclean until evening.  20  Everything she lies on or sits on in her state of niddah will be unclean.  21  Whoever touches her bed is to wash his clothes and bathe himself in water; he will be unclean until evening

Given the whole "unclean" thing is used against pork, shouldn't you take staying away from shit menstruating women touch aswell? How are you even supposed to know? Should you ask a woman if she's menstruated in the last 7 days before you take anything from her?

I don't see how more on topic I could be. I think if you understood that you choose your own ethics, just like atheists (except you choose some out of an old book). I'm sure theres ethical issues you have an opinion on that isn't covered in the Torah. Like cloning or genetic engineering. The people who wrote the Torah couldn't have possibly forseen GE, but no doubt you have an ethical stance on it, even if its "don't really care either way".

The same way you can have that ethical opinion on GE even though god doesn't tell you how to think about it, is the same way everyone else does it.
Logged

Diogenes The Cynic

  • Cynic. Pessimist. Skeptic. Jerk.
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3727
    • View Profile
Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2009, 08:00:52 PM »


No, we're talking about morality/ethics, you're saying that your ethics are based on what you think God expects from you, and now I'm saying that you don't follow everything god expects from you. (i.e. you pick and choose just like everyone else)

It clearly says in Leviticus you should put men who sleep with other men to death.

It says nothing about "only if they're jews living in israel" or whatever bullshit excuse you used last time i brought this up. You don't follow it because deep down you know its a bullshit ruling, but you can't bring yourself to say something in the Torah is wrong, so you just ignore it.

Hell, lets even say it only applies to Jews in Israel. Why aren't they doing what god expects them to do there? How would you feel if Israel decided they weren't going to punish murderers and thieves any more?

If people can use the "it was a different time and cultural background" to excuse why they don't kill gays, why can't they use it for murderers or kosher?

Classic pick and choosing. You pick the parts you like, and you disregard or disobey the parts you don't.

How about stoning unruly children?
How it being okay to beat slaves as long as you don't kill them? (please don't try to act that this was talking about voluntary servitude)
Do you follow all the rules on jerking off aswell?

How about menstrual cycles?
Quote
If a woman has a discharge, and the discharge from her body is blood, she will be in her state of niddah for seven days. Whoever touches her will be unclean until evening.  20  Everything she lies on or sits on in her state of niddah will be unclean.  21  Whoever touches her bed is to wash his clothes and bathe himself in water; he will be unclean until evening

Given the whole "unclean" thing is used against pork, shouldn't you take staying away from shit menstruating women touch aswell? How are you even supposed to know? Should you ask a woman if she's menstruated in the last 7 days before you take anything from her?

I don't see how more on topic I could be. I think if you understood that you choose your own ethics, just like atheists (except you choose some out of an old book). I'm sure theres ethical issues you have an opinion on that isn't covered in the Torah. Like cloning or genetic engineering. The people who wrote the Torah couldn't have possibly forseen GE, but no doubt you have an ethical stance on it, even if its "don't really care either way".

The same way you can have that ethical opinion on GE even though god doesn't tell you how to think about it, is the same way everyone else does it.

Damnit fatcat, whats wrong with you?

I started a thread to ask a question about atheism, and not to have you bitch about religion. I don't know why you think its relevant, but you're coming across as a troll right now.

You know I am not an apologist for my faith, so even posting is an attempt to start an argument. Its like you're a chick thats trying to turn something into an argument when it wasn't before. Its obvious you don't want an explanation. You want an argument.

If you refer to anything in the Torah as bs again, I will delete your posts. I welcome discussion, not denigration.

So, I'll bite your red herring. I do everything G-d expects from me. The superfluous things you mentioned will be discussed.

To address the points you brought up in the Torah: You keep quoting the written Torah, and not its oral component, the Gemara. You can only understand the Torah in context if you have the Gemara. They are two halves of a whole. The Gemara discusses how "eye for an eye" means you pay for the value of a lost eye, and not take out someone elses eye. I explained this to you before, and you didn't listen.

Capital punishment can only be done in the presence of a Sanhedrin of 71 members. We don't have that today.

Israel doesn't follow Jewish law, and that's problematic, but its a democracy, so people can't be forced into anything.

The Gemara says that the case of the rebellious son will never happen. Its supposed to teach good parenting traits, which are found in the Gemara.

Where does it say its ok to beat slaves?

The unclean thing is not used for pork. Yet another thing you fail to understand.

Husbands cant drink out of cups their wives drink from when they're niddah. Its something thats practiced today. The wife tells the husband.

We don't pick and choose, we just do the things that are applicable today. You just have a failure to understand anything in context and mention things you're ignorant about as a defense for your (stupid) viewpoint. The funny thing is, you're too ignorant to even argue with because you don't know any of my actual viewpoints, and can only substitute what you think they are. While I learned a considerable amount of anthropology, and philosophy in college, and throughout my adult life, you don't know the basics of the religion you're arguing against. Ignorance isn't a good defense.
Logged
I am looking for an honest man. -Diogenes The Cynic

Dude, I thought you were a spambot for like a week. You posted like a spambot. You failed the Turing test.

                                -Dennis Goddard

Rillion

  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6804
    • View Profile
Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2009, 08:28:13 PM »

Damnit fatcat, whats wrong with you?

I started a thread to ask a question about atheism, and not to have you bitch about religion. I don't know why you think its relevant, but you're coming across as a troll right now.

In fairness to fatcat, asking why ethics should matter to atheists displays either an incredible epistemological blind spot or a deliberate insult. 
Logged

anarchir

  • Extraordinaire
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5103
  • No victim, no crime.
    • View Profile
    • Prepared Security
Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2009, 09:29:17 PM »

"I don't pick and choose, I just follow what applies today."

Really? Really?? How is that not selective choosing?

I dont think the second amendment in the constitution applies today, nor the third commandment...so I'm just not going to follow them because this is a new day where they dont matter, but I follow the rest so its OK.
Logged
Good people disobey bad laws.
PreparedSecurity.com - Modern security and preparedness for the 21st century.
 [img width= height= alt=Prepared Security]http://www.prepareddesign.com/uploads/4/4/3/6/4436847/1636340_orig.png[/img]

Diogenes The Cynic

  • Cynic. Pessimist. Skeptic. Jerk.
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3727
    • View Profile
Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2009, 09:57:16 PM »

Damnit fatcat, whats wrong with you?

I started a thread to ask a question about atheism, and not to have you bitch about religion. I don't know why you think its relevant, but you're coming across as a troll right now.

In fairness to fatcat, asking why ethics should matter to atheists displays either an incredible epistemological blind spot or a deliberate insult. 

It wasn't an insult. I wouldn't ask a question I knew the answer to. I wanted to see what other people thought.
Logged
I am looking for an honest man. -Diogenes The Cynic

Dude, I thought you were a spambot for like a week. You posted like a spambot. You failed the Turing test.

                                -Dennis Goddard

Diogenes The Cynic

  • Cynic. Pessimist. Skeptic. Jerk.
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3727
    • View Profile
Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2009, 10:01:17 PM »

"I don't pick and choose, I just follow what applies today."

Really? Really?? How is that not selective choosing?

I dont think the second amendment in the constitution applies today, nor the third commandment...so I'm just not going to follow them because this is a new day where they dont matter, but I follow the rest so its OK.


Many of the mitzvot are dependent on having the Temple in Jerusalem. Since it's not there, we can't do everything we are commanded to. Its not being selective as it would be impossible to do those things, because if we could, we would.
Logged
I am looking for an honest man. -Diogenes The Cynic

Dude, I thought you were a spambot for like a week. You posted like a spambot. You failed the Turing test.

                                -Dennis Goddard

Laetitia

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3952
  • ...
    • View Profile
Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #40 on: December 30, 2009, 10:53:10 PM »

Damnit fatcat, whats wrong with you?

I started a thread to ask a question about atheism, and not to have you bitch about religion. I don't know why you think its relevant, but you're coming across as a troll right now.

In fairness to fatcat, asking why ethics should matter to atheists displays either an incredible epistemological blind spot or a deliberate insult. 

I've been wondering the same thing. It does seem like the whole thing was phrased just to get a reaction from atheists. Ethics and morals aren't something foreign to atheists. The concept of good & evil - were around long before any bible.

I have conversations with my children all the time about making the right choices in how one treats others without ever quoting religious texts. In fact, with my one child who is showing a leaning toward Faith, I tell her - of course it's my daughter - the commandment "Thou shalt not steal" being added to the old testament isn't what makes stealing wrong; it was added to the o.t. because it was wrong. Some people need to be reminded, because they weren't able to figure that out for themselves.
Logged
Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

Bill Brasky

  • Guest
Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #41 on: December 31, 2009, 12:25:51 AM »

I recommend

Universally Preferable Behavior by Stefan Molyneux.

http://www.freedomainradio.com/Books/UniversallyPreferableBehaviourEthics.aspx

*Awaiting Shitstorm from the Usual Suspects*

/Shitstorm?

If you have Google "auto fill" in your search recommendations, type in "moly", and see what your first suggestion is. 

It might not work properly in the Kingdom. 
Logged

Brooklyn Red Leg

  • The Red Legged Devil
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 764
    • View Profile
Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #42 on: December 31, 2009, 06:46:04 AM »

You need to live with yourself.  My ethics are not absolute, but they work for me.  And they're better than most peoples. (relatively speaking, the slime that hurts others, sues people, calls cops on neighbors, etc)

I can sleep at night knowing I have lived up to my personal beliefs.  I am not bothered by my actions.

I'm a Deist and that's basically how I feel. I don't believe in either a Universal Personification of Evil, nor in Divine Retribution/Judgment. At the end of the day, I have to live with my decisions and how they affect others, and being a scummy hypocritical fuckwit isn't 'kosher as Christmas' (to quote Lock, Stock & 2 Smoking Barrels).

Just as an anecdote (yea, I know, boring) the world makes ALOT more sense now that I ditched Christianity and its attendant Cognitive Dissonance.
Logged
"Democracy, too, is a religion. It is the worship of jackals by jackasses." - H.L. Mencken


Er_Murazor's KoLWiki Page

fatcat

  • Guest
Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2009, 09:10:05 PM »

Damnit fatcat, whats wrong with you?

I started a thread to ask a question about atheism, and not to have you bitch about religion. I don't know why you think its relevant, but you're coming across as a troll right now.

Atheism only means anything in the face of theism.

You were curious about where atheists stand on ethics.

You said you got your ethics from what you think god expects from you.

I disagreed and provided examples of what I believe is inconsistencies in this viewpoint.

I'll keep the rest of this quick.

Quote
Where does it say its ok to beat slaves?

(Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

    When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished.  If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. 

Since you ripped my head off every time I made a mistake quoting the Torah, do I get to do the same since you apparently don't know the own book you get guidance from?

Quote
The Gemara says that the case of the rebellious son will never happen. Its supposed to teach good parenting traits, which are found in the Gemara.

huh? No jewish parents have rebllious children? Maybe no true jewish parents?


Quote
Leviticus 20:9 ESV

For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him.

Surely if jewish children would never be rebellious god wouldn't have felt the need to tell people to kill them?

Maybe you mean children will never be killed because of something in the Gemara but I'm not sure.


Quote
The unclean thing is not used for pork. Yet another thing you fail to understand.

What?
Quote
Leviticus 11:7 And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he [is] unclean to you.

Please tell me how I've got this one wrong.

Quote
We don't pick and choose, we just do the things that are applicable today.

Except all the outrageous shit like stoning women who aren't virgins on their wedding night, owning and beating slaves, executing homosexuals isn't applicable today, but the stuff that most sensible people don't care about, like what food you eat or not doing things on special days (i.e. the shit that doesn't involve executing non violent people), is still applicable applicable. funny eh?

There hasn't been a Sanhedrin for the majority of the last 2000 years. Doesn't that make every execution during that time unjust?

If you're really think you should do what god expects you to, why do you take such a laid back attitude? There are literally millions of people walking around in the USA who deserve to be put to death according with the rulings of the Torah.

Let alone all the faggers and non virgin brides walking around in Tel Aviv. If what you believe is representative of what most Jews perceive as Judaism, isn't it a massive failing for pretty much no place on earth to be run by the ethics god set out for you?

If everything god expects is ethical, then doesn't it follow that not following that is unethical? Doesn't that mean your being unethical by not trying to implement gods ethics?

If god didn't want homosexuals to be executed, why did he tell people he did? Why didn't he say "oh by the way, in 2000 years this won't be applicable, but don't worry about it, I'll have changed my mind by then"?

IF its not applicable, shouldn't you be working to make it applicable?. God didn't say men who sleep with men should be put to death, unless in a couple thousand years and you don't really have a jewish law system, then forget about it, I didn't really mean they deserve to be executed.

You can't throw the whole "ignorance" thing in my face. Yeah I don't know the Torah aswell as you, but I'm not making any outlandish claims that I don't have sources for. A couple of times I've mixed up passages from the Torah and New testament (seriously its not that hard to do, how many passages do you know of the Koran or Bhagavad Gita), but I've never been willfully ignorant on any passage.

Also, point of clarification, why exactly is it that god wouldn't want you to just get a gun and start mowing down people he says should be put to death? Is there a passage against vigilantism? What if you got the go ahead from a rabbi?

seems like a pretty fragile judicial institution if it requires a specific temple and a 71 member council to make any execution happen, especially considering the Jews didn't have a homeland for a long time, what where people meant to do before that if they wanted to execute murderers and such?
Logged

The ghost of a ghost of a ghost

  • Owned by Brasky. Deal with it.
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1026
    • View Profile
Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2009, 11:52:07 PM »

"While I learned a considerable amount of anthropology, and philosophy in college, and throughout my adult life, you don't know the basics of the religion you're arguing against."

Wat?  Where did you go to college?  Jerry Falwell's Liberty University?


Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 12   Go Up
+  The Free Talk Live BBS
|-+  Free Talk Live
| |-+  General
| | |-+  A Question to the Athiests

// ]]>

Page created in 0.025 seconds with 33 queries.