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The ghost of a ghost of a ghost

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Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2009, 11:21:08 PM »

I listened to the podcast and found it very insightful.  I think highly of Stephan's work. I'm not a philosophy expert by any means (if such a thing truly exists), but his "universally preferably behavior theory" sings of common sense.  Here is a youtube summary :

[youtube=425,350] <object width="660" height="525"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/CueDiner6t0&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x234900&color2=0x4e9e00&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/CueDiner6t0&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x234900&color2=0x4e9e00&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="660" height="525"></embed></object>[/youtube]
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Rillion

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Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2009, 10:13:59 AM »

The majority of prison conversions are because people want to be included in a group, and religious groups are often the least violent. 

That, and it occasionally helps them get out faster.  If Oklahoma's Christian prison gets off the ground, I'd sure rather be there than a regular prison. 
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mikehz

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Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2009, 10:49:17 AM »

The majority of prison conversions are because people want to be included in a group, and religious groups are often the least violent. 


Most of those in prison (as with society at large) hold to some belief in God prior to their arrest. It's just that Christianity is so wonderfully flexible. You can commit some horrible crime, and then have the guilt of it magically erased via divine forgiveness. "I once was lost, but now I'm saved."
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2009, 01:51:56 PM »

I listened to the podcast and found it very insightful.  I think highly of Stephan's work. I'm not a philosophy expert by any means (if such a thing truly exists), but his "universally preferably behavior theory" sings of common sense.  Here is a youtube summary :

[youtube=425,350] <object width="660" height="525"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/CueDiner6t0&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x234900&color2=0x4e9e00&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/CueDiner6t0&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x234900&color2=0x4e9e00&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="660" height="525"></embed></object>[/youtube]

I listened to the entire youtube post, and it occurred to me. The moral theory he proposes is similar to Immanuel Kant's Categorical Imperative. It has the same problems as well because  Molyneux proposes a moral system based on a universal understanding of ethics. While it may be great at he universal level, its best for the individual to now follow the system, and thereby benefit from the rewards, but not its costs. For the universal good, its preferable for everyone to be honest, but for the individual good, its good for everyone ELSE to be honest.
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gibson042

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Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2009, 02:22:46 PM »

Quote from: Diogenes The Cynic link=topic=31855.msg580479#msg580479
I listened to the entire youtube post, and it occurred to me. The moral theory he proposes is similar to Immanuel Kant's Categorical Imperative. It has the same problems as well because  Molyneux proposes a moral system based on a universal understanding of ethics. While it may be great at he universal level, its best for the individual to now follow the system, and thereby benefit from the rewards, but not its costs. For the universal good, its preferable for everyone to be honest, but for the individual good, its good for everyone ELSE to be honest.

You just described Prisoner's Dilemma. And the indefinitely iterated version most akin to real-world interaction rewards individual cooperation, because dishonest people don't get repeat business.
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Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2009, 04:09:11 PM »

Agreed. That's what I always note about the prisoner's dilemma. It assumes lack of communication between participants. There will always be exceptions and aberrations. However a rational person, capable of observation and acting in his own self interest, will learn that respecting the rights of others and operating (mostly) within societal norms will yield the most desirable results.
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CaL DaVe

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Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2009, 04:33:59 PM »

Of course ethics matter. But only in the context that one lives in a society. And society rewards ethical behavior in the long run.

If we were able to live our lives isolated from one and other, ethics would not even exist. At that point, the only rule would be for one to stay alive, no matter what it takes.
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Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2009, 10:50:25 PM »

Agreed. That's what I always note about the prisoner's dilemma. It assumes lack of communication between participants. There will always be exceptions and aberrations. However a rational person, capable of observation and acting in his own self interest, will learn that respecting the rights of others and operating (mostly) within societal norms will yield the most desirable results.

Ethics help society function, agreed, but for a person who is entirely selfish, they would do all that they could thats unethical that wouldn't get them thrown into jail, or otherwise excluded. I also hold the notion that an extremely rational person would be self-absorbed, and selfish.
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Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2009, 12:19:51 AM »

How does belief in a god affect your ethics Cynic?
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2009, 12:31:34 AM »

How does belief in a god affect your ethics Cynic?

The ethical guide I live by is my understanding of what G-d expects from me.
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Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2009, 12:34:36 AM »

How does belief in a god affect your ethics Cynic?

The ethical guide I live by is my understanding of what G-d expects from me.

Would you still behave the same way if the concepts of heaven and hell played absolutely no part in your religion?
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2009, 12:43:36 AM »

How does belief in a god affect your ethics Cynic?

The ethical guide I live by is my understanding of what G-d expects from me.

Would you still behave the same way if the concepts of heaven and hell played absolutely no part in your religion?

Of course! I behave the way I do, not from the intangible punishments of hell, or rewards of heaven, but because I understand that what G-d expects me to do is my duty.
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Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2009, 11:33:47 AM »

How does belief in a god affect your ethics Cynic?

The ethical guide I live by is my understanding of what G-d expects from me.

except all the shit the bible says god expects from you that you don't agree with, in which case non of that stuff actually applies.

All Christians/Jews pick and choose from the bible/Torah, shit there are so many contradictions its impossible not to.. Everyone picks their own morals, its just religionists pick an old book to back up the shit they like, and pretend they got them from a higher being.
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Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2009, 11:53:11 AM »

Ethics help society function, agreed, but for a person who is entirely selfish, they would do all that they could thats unethical that wouldn't get them thrown into jail, or otherwise excluded. I also hold the notion that an extremely rational person would be self-absorbed, and selfish.

And, almost certainly, very very lonely. They probably couldn't pass on their selfish genes to many, if any, offspring.
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Harry Tuttle

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Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2009, 12:31:29 PM »

Ethics help society function, agreed, but for a person who is entirely selfish, they would do all that they could thats unethical that wouldn't get them thrown into jail, or otherwise excluded. I also hold the notion that an extremely rational person would be self-absorbed, and selfish.

So what? So let that guy (let's call him Ebenezer) live his self-absorbed and selfish life. In your system, each of you will get your reward in the afterlife. In my system, the world I build for myself here is its own reward. Ebenezer has built his life for himself. Maybe it really sucks for him, maybe he is happy. Who are we to judge? If there is a god then that god will judge Ebenezer. I don't care. The beauty is that under either your "system" or mine, he gets what is coming to him.

I suppose I could be afraid that Ebenezer will be a total prick and somehow have a happy life anyway. Guess what. I will make myself (and possibly others) miserable looking for justice in this world by trying to make Ebenezer get what is "coming to him". This is where the Judeo-Christian view gets it screwed up. They spend so much effort trying to build God's kingdom here on Earth that they lose some of the joy of this fleeting existence.

Here is my recommendation for you humans: Enjoy this life and the gifts given to you by the Flying Spaghetti Monster (or whoever you worship) and try not to be an asshole while you are at it. That's where it is at. If you are doing wrong to your fellow man, he'll make you see the error of your ways pretty quickly. Make sure you can look yourself in the mirror at the end of each day and you will likely be okay with any just deity at the end of your all-too-short life.
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