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Diogenes The Cynic

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A Question to the Athiests
« on: December 27, 2009, 04:52:54 AM »

Do ethics matter?

If so, why?
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Bill Brasky

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Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2009, 06:57:58 AM »

Do ethics matter?

If so, why?

You are your own god.  You need to live with yourself.  My ethics are not absolute, but they work for me.  And they're better than most peoples. (relatively speaking, the slime that hurts others, sues people, calls cops on neighbors, etc)

I can sleep at night knowing I have lived up to my personal beliefs.  I am not bothered by my actions. 

My question is, why is this directed at athiests?  Do you actually believe the religious are not flawed, or their behaviors are ethical without question?  There are levels of belief, you know, and one of the first things people learn to rationally mistrust and/or disrespect is those who do not "practice what they preach".  If I had to define "unethical" it would begin, right off the bat, with people who hypocritically hold others to a faith-standard that they themselves do not employ.   

Quote
Morality (from the Latin moralitas "manner, character, proper behavior") has three principal meanings.

In its first, descriptive usage, morality means a code of conduct or a set of beliefs distinguishing between right and wrong behaviors. In its descriptive use, morals are arbitrarily and subjectively created by philosophy, religion, and/or individual conscience.

Theres more in there about rational personal behavior than religion, me boy.  The sky-wizard is not a necessary component.  I won't catapult straight into religion causing more damage than its done good, because I don't want to turn this into an immediate insult-fest.  But that is an ethical and moral extension that is worthy of consideration, meaning the purposeful perpetuation of a practice that divides people and causes unrest between groups.  Personally, I don't condone that shit being out of the house.  If the public organized practice of your beliefs effect others negatively, perhaps they are unethical practices.  I know my life would probably be very different if there wasn't a clash between religions happening in the world around me.  You may be peaceful, and thats good, but you're still a part of it.  And I'll tell ya, I don't appreciate it very fuckin' much when this shit effects me. 

Be that as it may, there is still personal philosophy and conscience to contend with.  2/3rds is the bigger half.  So a vaunted perspective of religion is inappropriate in the construct of moral and ethical behavior, bring it down to earth with the pagans, walk among us, you'll be better for it. 

I hate to shit the whole thing up by quoting George Carlin, but he does a piece where he boils the ten commandments down into two, I think.  Don't kill, and don't steal.  Maybe three, don't lie, but sometimes lies are necessary, so he may have wiggled out of that one.  The rest is condensed into those two.  Its all I've ever really lived by, and I don't need a god or a comedian to tell me that.  We can all agree thats some important shit there.  The rest is subjective, sometimes its necessary to do stuff.  But more importantly, and all encompassing, THOU SHALT NOT EFFECT OTHERS.  That is your big and absolute moral.  Its like the safety seal on the package of cookies.  Once you open the bag of THOU SHALT NOT EFFECT OTHERS, you're in.  And it better be some goddamn win.  You better be sticking cookies in  the bag, or saving your own ass from a whole pile of fuck. 
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Rillion

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Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2009, 09:02:01 AM »

My question is, why is this directed at athiests?  Do you actually believe the religious are not flawed, or their behaviors are ethical without question? 

This.  Morally, the only real difference between atheists and theists is that atheists are more likely to acknowledge that they choose their morality.

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mikehz

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Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2009, 10:56:06 AM »

I have not noticed a great deal of ethics among believers in god. The prisons are full of Christians.
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AL the Inconspicuous

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Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2009, 02:50:20 PM »

Do ethics matter?

Yes, very much so.


If so, why?

Individual reputation in the context of a moral system based on the pursuit of empirical economic benefit for the human civilization as a whole (evolutionary pragmatism).
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anarchir

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Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2009, 03:17:57 PM »

Do ethics matter?

Yes, very much so.


If so, why?

Individual reputation in the context of a moral system based on the pursuit of empirical economic benefit for the human civilization as a whole (evolutionary pragmatism).


Individual reputation in the context of a moral system based on the pursuit of benefit for the human civilization as a whole. That and it makes my personal life better.
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2009, 03:33:53 PM »


1.You are your own god. 
2.You need to live with yourself.  My ethics are not absolute, but they work for me.  And they're better than most peoples.

3.I can sleep at night knowing I have lived up to my personal beliefs.  I am not bothered by my actions. 

4.My question is, why is this directed at athiests? 
5.Do you actually believe the religious are not flawed, or their behaviors are ethical without question? 
6.  If I had to define "unethical" it would begin, right off the bat, with people who hypocritically hold others to a faith-standard that they themselves do not employ.   

7.
Quote
Morality (from the Latin moralitas "manner, character, proper behavior") has three principal meanings.

In its first, descriptive usage, morality means a code of conduct or a set of beliefs distinguishing between right and wrong behaviors. In its descriptive use, morals are arbitrarily and subjectively created by philosophy, religion, and/or individual conscience.

8. You may be peaceful, and thats good, but you're still a part of it.  And I'll tell ya, I don't appreciate it very fuckin' much when this shit effects me. 

9.Be that as it may, there is still personal philosophy and conscience to contend with.  2/3rds is the bigger half.  So a vaunted perspective of religion is inappropriate in the construct of moral and ethical behavior, bring it down to earth with the pagans, walk among us, you'll be better for it. 



1. I don't understand this.

2. Your ethics couldn't be absolute. Maybe we will touch on this later.

   My question is, why have ethics at all? This ties into point (3) but I don't understand why an atheist would have a conscience about anything. Given a simple cost/benefit analysis, you stand to gain more from not having personal scruples because limiting yourself comes at a disadvantage, while not having those limits produces benefit.

4. Atheists don't have what I would consider a compelling reason to behave in a manner that isn't entirely selfish. An atheist could be selfish, and live without ethics, and for them, there wouldn't be a moral dilemma involved with this.

5. I believe that religious people can be flawed. But that entire discussion is irrelevant, and its funny how defensive you are in that respect. The second part of the question I will answer, if you reask me.

6. You claim hypocrisy to be unethical. No argument there.

7. Right. Why have any if you could live without them?

8. I have your approval? Thanks man! Newsflash dude, not all religious people are the same, and I bet the majority don't care enough to change you. Aside from that, you're being hostile, and for no real discernible reason.

9. If you're choosing your own morality, why would it be one that is to your own detriment?
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I am looking for an honest man. -Diogenes The Cynic

Dude, I thought you were a spambot for like a week. You posted like a spambot. You failed the Turing test.

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John Shaw

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Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2009, 05:28:39 PM »

I recommend

Universally Preferable Behavior by Stefan Molyneux.

http://www.freedomainradio.com/Books/UniversallyPreferableBehaviourEthics.aspx

*Awaiting Shitstorm from the Usual Suspects*
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hellbilly

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Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2009, 05:36:34 PM »

Are ethics important to believers because of the fear of hell or promise of heaven?

As an atheist, I believe I'm living the only life I'll ever experience. So, because this is it, it's proper for me to be the best person, father, friend that I can possibly be- for my personal benefit as well as everyone else. There is no reward for my good behavior upon death (and very little reward during life), so to me this is an even more pure form of "righteous living" because I'm doing so according to my personal moral code, as opposed to instructions from someone else based on a reward system.

If I should choose to harm someone, it's because someone has harmed me first. There are no demons to blame, no one to repent to, and no "God's plan" to hold accountable- just me.

What is hard to comprehend in Drifter's "You are your own god." ?
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OJ

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Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2009, 06:13:54 PM »

I have not noticed a great deal of ethics among believers in god. The prisons are full of Christians.

In all fairness, a lot of people DO seem to "find" Jesus there....

....often shortly before parole hearings....
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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2009, 06:47:51 PM »

As a non-atheist, I'm gonna say that I don't think I get my ethics from religion, but that I think that my religion reflects the ethics that I believe are good anyways.
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2009, 09:49:48 PM »

I recommend

Universally Preferable Behavior by Stefan Molyneux.

http://www.freedomainradio.com/Books/UniversallyPreferableBehaviourEthics.aspx

*Awaiting Shitstorm from the Usual Suspects*

If you mailed me a copy, I would read it.
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I am looking for an honest man. -Diogenes The Cynic

Dude, I thought you were a spambot for like a week. You posted like a spambot. You failed the Turing test.

                                -Dennis Goddard

Bill Brasky

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Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2009, 10:16:11 PM »

I have not noticed a great deal of ethics among believers in god. The prisons are full of Christians.

In all fairness, a lot of people DO seem to "find" Jesus there....

....often shortly before parole hearings....

The majority of prison conversions are because people want to be included in a group, and religious groups are often the least violent. 

In all fairness, maybe you should stop putting non-violent people there. 
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John Shaw

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Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2009, 10:23:59 PM »

I recommend

Universally Preferable Behavior by Stefan Molyneux.

http://www.freedomainradio.com/Books/UniversallyPreferableBehaviourEthics.aspx

*Awaiting Shitstorm from the Usual Suspects*

If you mailed me a copy, I would read it.

You can download the PDF right from that page. It's free. There's also a link to the audiobook.
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Bill Brasky

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Re: A Question to the Athiests
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2009, 11:18:17 PM »

*Awaiting Shitstorm from the Usual Suspects*

Nah.  Molybomb target is damaged.  Commence with landing sequence, Alpha-2.  You are go. 


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