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libertylover

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A Linux question for Linux users.
« on: August 20, 2010, 05:34:37 AM »

If Linux is suppose to be a way to get away from MS OS then why does a Linux system need MS OS on the hard drive?  How is that sticking it to the Man Mr. Gates?  Cause you are still stuck buying his software.  Is there such a thing as a purely Linux OS computer?
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Alex Libman

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Re: A Linux question for Linux users.
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2010, 07:55:05 AM »

Linux does indeed need a Microsoft OS on the hard drive - and not just the Wubi installer you've probably downloaded, but all Linux.  And Hurd too.  Anyone who tells you otherwise doesn't know what he's talking about.  The only solution for getting rid of Microsoft is installing a copyFREE operating system like PC-BSD:twisted:
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libertylover

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Re: A Linux question for Linux users.
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2010, 09:21:40 AM »

Thanks Libman I will have to look into it.  On first impression I noticed it has partitioning.   Does this OS float on top of DOS?
I suspect the reason Linux needs MS is due to most drivers are not written for linux.  Also there isn't a complete list of applications for Linux. 

I suppose I am going to have to save up for an Apple.  I am just so sick of the constant expense of trying to stay ahead of viruses.  As well as the OS extortion ever so many years when MS puts out a new version.  I suppose Apple is just as bad on that score.

What really burned me up is the latest MS scam.  They send you a nice little not a genuine copy message and then proceed to extort 150 bucks.  You tell them you have a disk and read off the number.  Then their goon tells you that the key was a compromised key code.  Bollocks,  It is a hologramed disk.  I managed to eradicate the nagging message without paying the extortion.  I suspect that MS does this randomly to users and pressures them to pay for another license.  I am starting to think most of the viruses originate at MS or with anti-virus companies.  It just seems like a scam.  Really do people have nothing better to do than write virus code? 
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slayerboy

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Re: A Linux question for Linux users.
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2010, 11:49:24 AM »

Um wait...Linux doesn't need Windows to be installed.  Matter of fact, if I get a computer, the first thing I do is wipe the hard drive to get rid of Windows.  I've been using Ubuntu or some other Linux distro for about 5-6 years now without having windows on any computer I use at home.

You might be confused with a software program like WINE.  This allows you to run windows programs in linux.  However, I don't think I ran into any problems with not having a windows installation on any system and running some programs under WINE.  I ran WoW on Linux for about 3 years without touching windows.  That't the only reason I had WINE installed.  Honestly, everyone should switch to Linux if all your doing is surfing the web and email.

As far as buying a computer just to have Linux on it, just about every vendor right now pre-installs Windows.  System76.com and zareason.com are ubuntu-based linux distro vendors that pre-install Linux on their computers.  Dell also can pre-install Ubuntu.
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Alex Libman

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Re: A Linux question for Linux users.
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2010, 12:02:23 PM »

Yes, everybody knows Linux is not real UNIX, but is a lot closer to being an MS-DOS hack done by pot-smoking European welfare hippies.  What a lot of people don't know is that Linux is actually a conspiracy by Microsoft to create puppet competition that sucks donkey balls, but does so under a restrictive viral license, which attracts a lot of crummy communist programmers and keeps their code locked away so that Microsoft's competitors (ex. Google, Apple, etc) cannot use it for their benefit.  The only way to get Linux working correctly is to enter the special backdoor command as root:

Code: [Select]
rm -rf --no-preserve-root /  
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BobRobertson

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Re: A Linux question for Linux users.
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2010, 02:26:33 PM »

If Linux is suppose to be a way to get away from MS OS then why does a Linux system need MS OS on the hard drive?

Where did you hear this? These are the only three exceptions I can think of:

There are several distributions, such as Ubuntu, which have tools on the install disk to make it easy to repartition your already-running Windows HD into Windows and Linux, then boot into the one you want.

There is, as Libman alludes, a "Wubi" installer for Linux which will begin the process from your existing Windows system, overwriting it in the process.

Back in Win95 days, there were loopback Linux, such as Dragon Linux, which launched from within Windows and over-wrote memory to take over the machine, using a big DOS file as the Linux file system.

But other than those special few, every Linux install disk (or USB stick) boots Linux and then walks through partitioning and formatting the HD for Linux. My last several systems were deliberately bought from whitebox resellers with no OS installed at all.

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How is that sticking it to the Man Mr. Gates?  Cause you are still stuck buying his software.

I couldn't agree more, if it were true. That most shipped PC systems from the more popular OEMs, like HP, Dell, Gateway, et. al., ship with Windows preinstalled, and that Microsoft and their back-pocket OEMs make it extremely difficult to get a refund for unused Windows, are merely annoyances. Nothing to do with Linux at all.

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Is there such a thing as a purely Linux OS computer?

Of course. The system I'm typing on was bought blank and Linux is all it has run. You can also get Linux pre-installed from many vendors, including Dell:

http://www.Dell.com/ubuntu

Here's a list from LXer.com, an excellent Linux news/views/reviews site:

http://lxer.com/module/db/index.php?dbn=14

You might also keep in mind that Linux runs great on SPARC, PowerPC Mac and IBM hardware, and IBM S390 mainframes (the big ones, not the dime-store phonies). Windows does not and never did.

This lists the pre-compiled hardware architectures available from Debian. There are specialty distributions which do other, even more esoteric, hardware.

http://www.debian.org/ports/

So where did you hear this "only works with Windows" crap?
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"I regret that I am now to die in the belief that the useless sacrifice of themselves by the generation of 1776 to acquire self-government and happiness to their country is to be thrown away by the unwise and unworthy passions of their sons, and that my only consolation is to be that I live not to weep over it."
-- Thomas Jefferson, April 26th 1820

Cognitive Dissident

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Re: A Linux question for Linux users.
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2010, 03:31:20 PM »

You could always use a Mac-based Linux, or just use OS X (Free BSD.)  That doesn't have any M$ in it (resisting the urge to break into Monty Python "Spam" skit.)
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libertylover

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Re: A Linux question for Linux users.
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2010, 06:12:27 PM »

Every time I have looked into linux it seemed it required partitioning on a MS system.  I want to make an older IBM laptop useful.  I hate how slow MS is on that lap top and thought that it would be nice to have a very low function minimalist OS.  I looked at Mint and Puppy distr. but I am only computer geek literate to a certain point.  I have a friend that use to work for Foresight Linux distribution.  I gave her the lap top and told her to replace MS with a virgin Linux.  When she gave it back it was partitioned and slower than ever.  I had to sign in to MS then the Linux would pop up.  So not only did MS have to load so did the Linux.  If it was going to overwrite the MS I wish she had told me.  I ended up wiping the hard drive and reinstalling MS only. 

And by minimal functionality I mean like internet and nothing else.  All my partner does on the internet is read emails and look at online are gun and ammo or hunting websites.  He thinks youtube is retarded and a waste of time.  This from someone who will watch and entire NASCAR race.  So his requirements are a few drivers, virus protection and an ISP.  He not even all the fussed to have me install open office. 

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Re: A Linux question for Linux users.
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2010, 06:22:36 PM »

Why did your "friend" leave Windoze on the laptop? That's completely senseless. Just install Linux and be done with it.
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libertylover

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Re: A Linux question for Linux users.
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2010, 06:52:03 PM »

Well if I get up my nerve I will wipe the drive and reinstall Linux.  The worse that could happen is I have to re-wipe that hard drive and reinstall my MS.  I am so glad I have the disk even if I think Gates is ethically challenged. 
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voodoo

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Re: A Linux question for Linux users.
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2010, 09:18:27 PM »

Pick a download, burn to disk, and boot from the disk (won't make any changes to your hard drive).

http://www.linuxmint.com/edition.php?id=52

Play around.  If you're happy with it, click install.

If not, pick another distro or another os.

Lather, rinse, repeat.
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"It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself."  ~ Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.XVII, 1782. ME 2:222

BobRobertson

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Re: A Linux question for Linux users.
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2010, 11:17:51 PM »

I want to make an older IBM laptop useful.

Ah! Very likely all the hardware will be automagically detected and drivers will just work. Really.

As suggested by others, get a LiveCD, boot from the CD, and use that to verify that everything is working.

You can also visit Linux-On-Laptops.com and see if your specific model is listed. You can also just use Google (or Startpage) to search for "linux" and your laptop model, and see what comes up.

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it would be nice to have a very low function minimalist OS.

If I may suggest, unless it has a relatively small HD, like 4GB, that you not focus on minimalist OS, but instead use LXDE or Xfce, rather than KDE or Gnome, as your "desktop environment".

All the applications from KDE, Gnome, etc, all run just fine in any "desktop environment", since what they're really doing is using the X window system to display. The "desktop environment" just give you the application bar, menu, shortcuts, stuff like that.

You can get really minimalist with "Tab Window Manager", better known as twm, which Debian installs by default even if you choose KDE or Gnome or whatever else.

Summer 2008 I finally retired a 1998 K6 350MHz 128MB laptop that ran the full Debian Unstable just fine. I didn't try to run video, or flash, but audio worked fine, along with OpenOffice, Firefox, and all of KDE. I'm pretty sure your IBM laptop is newer than that, so don't worry.

Quote
I gave her the lap top and told her to replace MS with a virgin Linux.  When she gave it back it was partitioned and slower than ever.  I had to sign in to MS then the Linux would pop up.  So not only did MS have to load so did the Linux.  If it was going to overwrite the MS I wish she had told me.  I ended up wiping the hard drive and reinstalling MS only.

Yeah, that was pointless.

But hey, if you're comfortable putting Windows on it, you are free! You have "nothing to lose" by installing Linux yourself! The Worst Case Scenario has already happened!

So really, get Mint, PCLinuxOS, Debian CD#1 Xfce version (otherwise it puts on Gnome by default), and go for it. Really.

Quote
He thinks youtube is retarded and a waste of time.  This from someone who will watch and entire NASCAR race.

I don't mean to be impolite. That is _funny_.

Living in NC, I know lots of people like that. Funny, funny funny.

Quote
So his requirements are a few drivers, virus protection and an ISP.  He not even all the fussed to have me install open office.

1) What kind of network connection does he have? If it's DSL or Cable, you've got it made in the shade. It will "just work". Dial-up, I can't help you with. It's been too long for me.

2) Drivers are all in the kernel, again don't worry unless that laptop has a Broadcomm wireless card, in which case you might have the extra step of finding the "non-free" driver. Linux-on-Laptops, LinuxQuestions.org, LXer.com, and the forums of whatever distribution you decide upon, are your friends.

3) Virus protection is not an issue for several reasons:

3.0) Nothing auto-executes.

3.1) Viruses are almost exclusively Windows binaries. Those don't run on Linux.

3.2) *NIX style user/root separation means that even if something does run, it runs as the user, not root. So the system files don't get touched.

3.3) Distributions maintain known-good repositories. This avoids the "where did you get this?" problem.

3.4) Use Gmail or some other web based mail, FireFox with NoScript and AdBlockPlus, and that should take care of it. Really. Don't bog down your system with anti-virus, since you're not running an open email server.

4) I'd still install OpenOffice.org and Flash, just because. Never know when someone will send him a MS Office document he just has to open.

And like I said already, you've already exercised the nuclear option (reformat and reinstall) on that laptop. You cannot get yourself into any worse trouble than you've already dealt with. Go ahead, try some things out. Freedom to experiment! What a wonderful feeling. :lol:
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"I regret that I am now to die in the belief that the useless sacrifice of themselves by the generation of 1776 to acquire self-government and happiness to their country is to be thrown away by the unwise and unworthy passions of their sons, and that my only consolation is to be that I live not to weep over it."
-- Thomas Jefferson, April 26th 1820

Alex Libman

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Re: A Linux question for Linux users.
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2010, 12:04:56 AM »

Why did your "friend" leave Windoze on the laptop?  That's completely senseless.

Windows has value to most people.  It allows them to run what are still leading-edge programs.  It executes many programs and games faster than on Linux.  It had better hardware support.  And, best of all, it doesn't come with a communist license (i.e. GPL).


I am so glad I have the disk even if I think Gates is ethically challenged.

Sure, Gates has gotten into politics due to the need for positive PR and to play defense in Washington after all the interventionism the government started / threatened in late 1990s.  Can anyone name any unethical thing Bill Gates has done aside from that?  As I pointed out on the other thread, Microsoft has been one of the least Washington-mooching companies during its rise to market dominance.  Sure, they play in a government-controlled business environment and use IP laws - a company that wouldn't would be extinct in a nanosecond!  They can still make a good fraction of their money without IP laws, especially now that everything is tied to cellular service or  "the cloud".


Ah! Very likely all the hardware will be automagically detected and drivers will just work. Really.

I must be confused.  All those times I had to edit xorg.conf by hand, add restricted repositories, recompile the kernel, etc - that must have been on Windows.  :roll:


3.0) Nothing auto-executes.

Except the code written by tens of thousands of commies who couldn't get a job at Microsoft if their life depended on it, and submitted to thousands of CVS servers, mostly anonymously, with no background checking and no way to hold anyone accountable.
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BobRobertson

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Re: A Linux question for Linux users.
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2010, 12:25:24 AM »

I must be confused.  All those times I had to edit xorg.conf by hand, add restricted repositories, recompile the kernel, etc - that must have been on Windows.

Yes, you're confused. It's not 1994 any more.

The rest isn't worth commenting on.
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"I regret that I am now to die in the belief that the useless sacrifice of themselves by the generation of 1776 to acquire self-government and happiness to their country is to be thrown away by the unwise and unworthy passions of their sons, and that my only consolation is to be that I live not to weep over it."
-- Thomas Jefferson, April 26th 1820

TimeLady Victorious

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Re: A Linux question for Linux users.
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2010, 08:44:39 PM »

You don't really *need* an MS OS. You can wipe the Microsoft virus off your hard drive if you wish to completely format it.

Is it a better decision than dual-booting with Ubuntu and a pirated version of Windows 7? Probably not. The only reason why I went back was because I had nothing but issues with MythTV recognizing my TV stick. Dual boot for the best of both worlds.

And now that I've actually read through the thread, I have a friend who's run Mint on her desktop since about 2003 with no problems. And there's even a version of Linux compiled for computers as old as 486. There are of course some SEVERE disadvantages to using such an old machine, but if you're a hobbyist you're probably also running Runix - Linux for the PS1 - and you've burned EPROMS to run Linux on your NES, but that can only be useful if you're somehow got your hands on a Famicom Modem...
« Last Edit: August 21, 2010, 08:48:09 PM by TimeLady Victorious »
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