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Free Talk Live => General => Topic started by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 09, 2010, 10:44:45 AM

Title: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 09, 2010, 10:44:45 AM
Step 1  -  Do some research and admit that the Metric System (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_system) of weights and measures is in fact mathematically and economically superior, and that it sucks how most American consumers still don't prefer it - because if they did the businesses would obviously switch.  Set aside a tiny fraction of your online time to research the issue further and debate it with others.
Step 2  -  Use something like Google to check (http://www.google.com/search?q=libertarian+%22metric+system%22) if there's an existing libertarian strategy for promoting the Metric System without resorting to government force.  If you can find one, feel free to borrow some ideas.  If you don't, feel free to initiate your own, which is exactly what the author of this forum post is now doing.
Step 3  -  Take individual responsibility for your own behavior as a consumer, which probably doesn't tilt a single penny in favor of the Metric System.  You alone will not change the world, but your own reputation will record your efforts to make the world a slightly better place.
Step 4  -  Come up with a personal plan for "tilting a penny" (so to speak) in favor of the Metric System.  If you run a business that produces physical goods, then what you can do is rather obvious.  If you are a consumer, as all of us are, this means exerting just a tiny bit of effort to do your part to profess your preference for the Metric System.  If you see two identical products, one priced in pounds and the other in kilos - simply buy the latter!
Step 5  -  Set aside a few minutes each month to write a letter to one company whose products you consume.  The first letter you write will probably take you longer, but you can then just copy and paste chunks of it for subsequent ones.  Tell them how frequently you buy their products, what you like about them, and what you dislike.  This is an opportunity to kill multiple birds with one stone by mentioning any number of things in your letter in addition to what weights and measures you think they should use.  For the purposes of this issue, the essential thing to mention is that, all other things being roughly equal, you would buy their competitor's products if they switched their labeling to the Metric System first.  The company will probably just ignore your letter, but you're not just writing it for them, you're writing it for yourself and your reputation as well.
Step 6  -  In addition to mailing or e-mailing this letter to the company, also post it on your blog (and/or another publicly-accessible corner of the Internet, like the FTL forum) for others to see.  This is how consumer activism campaigns, even one as small as this, can grow and turn into larger movements, but even if they don't - you'll still have the bragging rights for doing the right thing, even on this minor issue.
Step 7  -  The next time a socialist tries to point at America's use of ye olde Imperial system of weights and measures as supposedly an example of "market failure", or mockingly asks you how many slugs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slug_%28mass%29) there are in a bushel of apples (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1+bushel+of+apples), tell her that you are doing your part to promote the Metric System, combined with the rest of the libertarian lecture for why government interventionism would have been bad.
Step 8  -  As more and more companies voluntarily make the switch, you will be able to claim some small part of the credit, and use it to motivate others to join other consumer activism efforts to gradually make the world a slightly better place.  Sure, a revolution could have made those changes faster, but at what cost?
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: The ghost of a ghost of a ghost on February 09, 2010, 10:54:29 AM
Buy/sell weed as a way to familiar yourself with conversion rates.  Most people talk english but buy metric in this sub-culture.

 "I'll take an ounce of the Sour-Diesel-Kush."
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 09, 2010, 11:05:00 AM
Just as an experiment, I submitted this story as a scoop to FTL:

http://freetalklive.com/content/libertarian_strategy_promoting_metric_system

:lol:
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: davann on February 09, 2010, 11:27:59 AM
Eh, metric system? Why bother? The U.S. is the last super power in the world. Should not all the other little countries be changing to our system? They can think of it as an act of contrition, a show of subservience and loyalty to the rightful ruler of the world. The European countries along with Russia should be the first to do this as they have shown themselves to be utter failures in the role of world domination.
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 09, 2010, 11:39:25 AM
You now come off as precisely the straw-man stereotype of an "evil capitalist" that the socialists so love to morally belittle!

The Metric System can be scientifically demonstrated to encourage consumers to make more mental calculations as they shop and improve mathematical reasoning skills, which leads to a more efficient market mechanisms even in the most low-tech of business environments.  It leads to fewer misestimates, fewer unit conversion errors, faster ability to make decisions without reaching for a calculator, and so on.
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: ForumTroll on February 09, 2010, 11:57:45 AM
I can't do the metric system in my head.
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: sandm000 on February 09, 2010, 12:01:38 PM
The metric system is a less efficient system because 1) it dehumanizes scales of measurement (Which is good when talking about things like the universe, bad when talking about human things) 2) the default error is a multiple of 10 error, Which is extremely bad when giving injections to infants.

Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: davann on February 09, 2010, 12:04:08 PM
You now come off as precisely the straw-man stereotype of an "evil capitalist" that the socialists so love to morally belittle!


Mere heretics in the king's court. They will be crushed under the heel of the world's rightful masters along with their broken system of measurement.
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 09, 2010, 12:39:28 PM
I can't do the metric system in my head.

You are comparing apples to oranges because you use ye olde Imperial system every day while you only use the metric system now and again.  I was born in a country where the metric system was the standard, so I am similarly biased in the other direction, but it is logical that the metric system would be easier to use based on its simplicity, consistency, and universality.  People whose lives are equally split between both (like the generation of the British subjects who've made the switch) tend to agree.


1) it dehumanizes scales of measurement

I have 10 fingers, not 5280 (yes, I had to look that up).


2) the default error is a multiple of 10 error, Which is extremely bad when giving injections to infants.

That is a legitimate downside only if error rates in metric countries are higher, which I seriously doubt.  Using an unintuitive system that is different than the rest of the world introduces far, far greater causes of error.
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: fatcat on February 09, 2010, 01:54:25 PM
1 litre of water = 1 kilo of water = 1 meter cubed of water

BAM!
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 09, 2010, 02:57:57 PM
You mean 10 cm3 (or 1 dm3, but no one would use that term) cube of water (at strictly defined purity, pressure, and temperature - which you needn't worry about for everyday calculations).

But, yeah, much easier than converting about 33.8140 U.S. fluid ounces (35.1950 British fluid ounces) to 61.0237441 cubic inches!
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: Level 20 Anklebiter on February 09, 2010, 03:15:49 PM
You forgot to point out that base 10 measures are easier to compute in base 2. They're interchangeable to a lesser extent with octal and hexadecimal.
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: fatcat on February 09, 2010, 03:24:58 PM
You mean 10 cm3 (or 1 dm3, but no one would use that term) cube of water (at strictly defined purity, pressure, and temperature - which you needn't worry about for everyday calculations).

yeah my bad, i always fuck up on cubing
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: anarchir on February 09, 2010, 04:30:36 PM
I think people are going to choose what they want here, and use both. We use metric frequently in cooking too. Perhaps not in your kitchen, but in professional ones for determining how much food to serve. 4oz of corned beef on that reuben.
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 09, 2010, 04:47:48 PM
yeah my bad, i always fuck up on cubing [the metric system]

Yes, but in communist Cuba the system always fucks up you!   :lol:


[...]  4oz of corned beef on that reuben.

Are those avoirdupois, troy, Apothecaries, Maria Theresa, Dutch, or Chinese ounces?  :lol:

And if you were to put those 4oz of corned beef on a pizza and someone asks you how much of it was in a 1/5th or a 1/6th slice of it, you're gonna wish it was 120 grams instead.
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: Harry Tuttle on February 09, 2010, 07:11:58 PM
I can honestly say that I don't care and don't think much about measurements. I would have a tough time with feet vs. meters for a while (6'1" is easy to remember and relate to than 182 centimeters or 1.852 meters) but I'm sure I would get used to it. I'm sure I would quickly get used to liters vs. gallons in my gasoline.

Now here's my idea to get Joe Sixpack on board. Get the local pub to start selling a "half-liter" for the same price as a pint. I think that's like 10% more, but that's just a rough guess, because I don't know the exact conversion, or which kind of pint the are using.
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 09, 2010, 09:17:20 PM
Weird, I find height much easier to remember in the metric system - everyone's a meter something (unless you're a kid, or as tall as Glenn Jacobs), like "meter sixty five", so you just remember the last two numbers.  With feet and inches you have as much cognitive information ("five foot five"), or more because the number of inches is base 12 instead of base 10, but almost 1/3rd the accuracy!

And doing relative calculations (ex "10% longer than 5'11") requires extra steps (1.1 * (5 * 12 + 11), and then convert to feet and inches again), while with metric anyone can do it in his head on the fly!  Even typing "5 ft 11 in" into Google is a pain in the ass compared to "180 cm", and I still can't figure out how to get it to produce output in both feet and inches!
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: gibson042 on February 09, 2010, 10:52:42 PM
Even typing "5 ft 11 in" into Google is a pain in the ass compared to "180 cm", and I still can't figure out how to get it to produce output in both feet and inches!

I accept your challenge. It's messy, but you can get a human-interpretable answer with complex numbers. Integer feet (floor function) (http://www.google.com/search?q=180+cm+-+%28180+cm+%25+1+foot%29++%2B++i+foot%2Finch+%28180+cm+%25+1+foot%29+in+feet) requires three input copies while decimal feet (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=180+cm++%2B++i+foot%2Finch+%28180+cm+%25+1+foot%29+in+feet) can be done with two. Or you could just sell your soul to Wolfram Alpha (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=convert+180+cm+to+feet).
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on February 09, 2010, 10:54:44 PM
We already use the metric system for everything that counts.
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 10, 2010, 03:36:23 AM
I accept your challenge.  [...]

I appreciate your calculator hacking creativity in utilizing imaginary numbers, but you still finish second.  ;)


We already use the metric system for everything that counts.

Are you trying to tell me that tomatoes don't count?!  Bet you wouldn't say that to my face, cause I take my tomatoes very seriously ya know!
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: gibson042 on February 10, 2010, 12:52:23 PM
I appreciate your calculator hacking creativity in utilizing imaginary numbers, but you still finish second.  ;)

I feel shortchanged. :roll:  Oh well, onto other projects...
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: rookie on February 10, 2010, 01:18:16 PM
Buy/sell weed as a way to familiar yourself with conversion rates.  Most people talk english but buy metric in this sub-culture.

 "I'll take an ounce of the Sour-Diesel-Kush."


(http://animoscrypt.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/476px-soda_jerk_nywts.jpg)
"28 grams? comin' right up!"  ;)
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 10, 2010, 02:57:34 PM
No one voted... (http://freetalklive.com/content/libertarian_strategy_promoting_metric_system)  :roll:


"28 grams? comin' right up!"  ;)

Dosage conventions and language tend to adapt to the metric system quite well, it's only a matter of time.

Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: TimeLady Victorious on February 10, 2010, 03:54:24 PM
Fuck the metric system. My car gets 14 rods to the hogshead, and that's the way I like it.
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: Karrde188 on February 10, 2010, 07:32:35 PM

Speaking of cars, why doesn't the metric system measure fuel efficiency in Kilometers per liter the way we measure in Miles per gallon? I would figure measuring it in Kilometers per liter would be more precise than say "5 liters per 100 KM"... IMHO
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: sandm000 on February 11, 2010, 11:37:53 AM

1) it dehumanizes scales of measurement

I have 10 fingers, not 5280 (yes, I had to look that up).
Yes and there is a difference between counting and measuring.

Quote
2) the default error is a multiple of 10 error, Which is extremely bad when giving injections to infants.

That is a legitimate downside only if error rates in metric countries are higher, which I seriously doubt.  Using an unintuitive system that is different than the rest of the world introduces far, far greater causes of error.

The default error in the imperial system is a factor of two.
So if you have 1 viagra tablet and you take half by accident you still get the effect, while if you take 2 you still get the effect but with an increased chance of negative effects.
Compare to metric error. 0.1 pills yields minimal effects while 10 pills puts you in the hospital. Do you see the point? And one should assume that the error rates are standard worldwide, if not higher in countries with socialized medicine (what incentive do they have to get the numbers right?)
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 11, 2010, 12:47:44 PM
Yes and there is a difference between counting and measuring.

Both are done by computers, but unit conversion is what is most likely to screw things up.


The default error in the imperial system is a factor of two.

The "default error" nonsense is completely irrelevant.  The default error of air travel (plane crash) is far deadlier than the default error of roller-blading (falling on your ass), but going from New York to Hong Kong via a plane is still the safer way to do it.

Furthermore, the only unit errors I've ever experienced in my life were with the Imperial system.  The rest of the world laughs at caricatures of a stupid American mixing up feet and yards, which does happen all the time, but no one ever mixes up centimeters, meters, and kilometers - they're used in completely different contexts!  (Intermediate units that are pointless to use are simply never used.)
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: Donnie Love on February 11, 2010, 07:43:36 PM
I always look for half liter sodas as opposed to 20 ouncers.
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 11, 2010, 07:55:36 PM
Awesome!

Now bitch about that in a letter to a company, and my movement will no longer consist of myself alone.  :lol:
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: Manuel_OKelly on February 11, 2010, 09:19:22 PM
The reason the market hasn't adopted the metric system is because using decimal units with the english system is just as good.
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 11, 2010, 10:30:03 PM
The reason the market hasn't adopted the metric system is because using decimal units with the english system is just as good.

No it's not, and it wouldn't be even if they got rid of inches, feet, miles, etc and just used centiyards, kiloyards, etc, because that's not what the rest of the world uses, creating arbitrary inconsistency.  And then you have the interrelatedness of units (did you miss fatcat's "BAM!" on the first page?), etc.
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: trusten on February 16, 2010, 12:28:41 AM
It has been said that, as a subject, metrology isn't something that requires passion, but both I and the author of this post have invested considerable passion in the subject.  Since 1974, I have been working to help establish the SI metric system as the United States' primary, everyday system of measurement.  For a standards-loving nation, one that will set a standard for candy bars and signposts, we are strange to continue postponing a standard that really matters.  Metrication will give us decimal measurement and the use of a common "language" that the rest of the world has long since adopted.  Also, fixing a true U.S. measurement standard is not socialistic. It is a power granted to the Congress by Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution.  Thus it is consistent with the visions set forth in the preamble of that document: to form a more perfect union and to promote the general welfare--welfare in the literal sense, that is, faring well as a Nation.

Successful metrication is not a product of coercion.  It is the result of the assent of all sectors of a society to make the change. All of us agree utterly to make the change, and then proceed to do so.  Australia's metrication plan is the best example of this assent:  setting a national goal, and getting to work on it.  Everybody measures things, so everyone has to be involved. 

Paul Trusten, R.Ph., Public Relations Director, U.S. Metric Association, Inc.  www.metric.org



Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: gibson042 on February 16, 2010, 10:16:24 AM
Also, fixing a true U.S. measurement standard is not socialistic. It is a power granted to the Congress by Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution.

People really think like this? Hahahasob. :(
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 16, 2010, 11:26:37 AM
It is socialistic in the sense that socialism is a scale, not a binary attribute; a direction, not a destination (especially since any society that comes anywhere close to socialism inevitably collapses).  All governments are socialist (communist, fascist, etc) to some degree, and that even applies to the ideal of the U.S. Constitution.  The intention of this thread was to find a way to encourage use of the metric system through consumer activism - 100% government-free!


PS:  only 3 people voted up this scoop (http://freetalklive.com/content/libertarian_strategy_promoting_metric_system) so far (or some people also voted down)...
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: Harry Tuttle on February 16, 2010, 02:47:46 PM
You start a small nonprofit group to promote the metric system. Make sure you state clearly in your mission statement or incorporation papers and all marketing info that you support ONLY VOLUNTARY COMPLIANCE.

Then you promote yourself to news media and appeal to nerds with your same interests everywhere. Then, get some charismatic pitch man (or woman) to promote the idea to businesses that they should post the metric measurements on their products/packaging more prominently than US measurements. This might work best for those businesses when it can be used as a marketing gimmick to promote giving more for less.

Maybe you get a sexy actress to take up your cause.

You have to foster a grass roots movement.

Warning: as soon as you start getting government involved in pushing your agenda you will become my enemy.
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: Alex Libman on August 30, 2010, 04:08:10 PM
*BUMP*

Seriously, y'all.  The metric system is important.  Humanity must end the conversion headaches once and for all, and move forward with a unified and rational system of units.

So, I ask - what have YOU done to switch to the metric system?
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: gibson042 on August 30, 2010, 09:58:34 PM
The metric system? Is that the antiquated collection of units derived from things like the planet's circumference (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meter) and platinum-iridium artifacts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilogram)? Call me when you've got a plan for switching to natural units (http://planck.com/).
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: Alex Libman on August 30, 2010, 10:26:48 PM
Planck units (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_units) would be great for communicating with aliens, but are very complicated to institute for day-to-day human use, which is what we need right now.  They wouldn't result in any significant calculation productivity improvements, because computers can operate on human scale just fine.  Most people are too dumb to properly learn even one system of units, so please stop confusing them with alternatives.
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on August 31, 2010, 02:20:25 AM
If you worked in science you would know that the metric system is already the standard, and that government intervention wasn't needed to make it so.
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: Alex Libman on August 31, 2010, 03:32:41 AM
Good.  What this thread is about is the libertarian position that is pro-metric-system and anti-government-force.  Ye old imperial system still dominates most consumer goods, and the purpose of this thread is to encourage libertarian manufacturers, store owners, etc to use metric instead.  Showing initiative on this matter would counteract the wide-spread belief that governmental imposition of standards is necessary to get things done.
Title: Re: A libertarian strategy for promoting the metric system
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on August 31, 2010, 09:09:12 AM
Good.  What this thread is about is the libertarian position that is pro-metric-system and anti-government-force.  Ye old imperial system still dominates most consumer goods, and the purpose of this thread is to encourage libertarian manufacturers, store owners, etc to use metric instead.  Showing initiative on this matter would counteract the wide-spread belief that governmental imposition of standards is necessary to get things done.

But who cares on common goods?  It really doesn't matter there, although common goods are still printed with both the metric and imperial units on them.