22 April '10 Extend Show: Ian trashes politicos; "I don't trash on politicos"

[ElGuapo]

April 22, 2010 Podcast (extended edition - time measured from beginning of podcast)

@ 164 Minutes, 25 Seconds - Ian argues with Mark about why nobody outside of Keene "gives a flip" about the Free State Project members; "...because they're not doing anything...no, no, no, they're not doing anyth...big fucking deal, they're not doing anything, they're sitting in the fucking state house doing their bullit...bullshit politics"

@ 170 Minutes, 04 Seconds - Ian explains that he never trashes on the politico types; "...but don't trash on...don't...right...come here and do your thing, but don't trash on us for doing what we're doing, I don't trash on politicos for going and begging at the state house."

"Bullshit" & "Begging" - I'm sure the politicos don't see that as being "trashed on."

Both the politicos and the outside-the-system activists could be successful with enough people. Neither currently have enough people to make a lasting difference - but that absolutely does not mean that what either are doing is pointless. The success of one group will likely benefit the other; the failure of one group won't necessarily hurt the other, but it certainly won't help them. If the most public face of the Free State Project (in Keene) is a bunch of pot-smokers in a park with a megaphone; the general populous are going to start associating freestaters with noisy, in-your-face pot-smokers.

The Vandals song "Anarchy Burger" includes the lyrics; "America stands for freedom, But if you think you're free, Try walkin into a deli, And urinating on the cheese" - the 420 celebrations probably look, to the average bystander, like a bunch of anarchists going into the public deli to piss on the public cheese, figuratively speaking. It may be peaceful; and I am certain it is, but most people likely see it as antagonistic. You've also kind of backed yourself into a corner in that; if you ever stop the 420 celebrations prior to the complete decriminalization of Marijuana, the statists will see it as a victory for their side and will be a little harder to reach later on.

If you don't make any attempt to correct the misconceptions about freestaters, what's the point in getting upset that people don't understand? I can't imagine anyone seeing a bunch of middle-aged pot-smokers together in a park and thinking; "wow, they're principled liberty folks; I'd like to hear what they have to say" - I'd be more likely to think; "another group of liberal hippies, I'd better get out of here before they get on my ass for wearing leather, or eating meat" - the perceptions may be unfounded, but even unfounded perceptions can make a very real impact, and may be a hindrance in the long run.

No, I don't have any suggestions. I enjoy the show and listen to the podcasts daily, but I think Ian is just a little too critical of activism that he doesn't see as useful, and Mark can't stop stammering long enough to drive his very valid points home - no offense to either, it's the only radio show I listen to and I am a fan. This is either constructive criticism, or maybe I'm just completely full of shit and haven't thought this through well enough to see it yet. I voted for Rudy G. in the primary, so I'm not exactly accustomed to thinking for myself quite yet.

[ForumTroll]

wat

[BobRobertson]

It seems someone doesn't like that Ian thinks politics can't solve the problem.

Indeed, Ian treats politicians as parasites, regardless of their affiliation.

What Ian doesn't do every 30 seconds is clearly state "I don't mean people who get elected specifically to try to take down the system from the inside."

That's not much of a negative on Ian, since he's stated many times his respect for the Liberty Alliance and its members and sympathizers. Statements like, "What other state has X>0 A+ rated representatives? NH has (number greater than 20)!"

The general population has an attention span of seconds.

But as Superman once said in a comic long since past, "You're only as good as your last Super Deed."

[anarchir]

Lets do both and see what happens. One method has been tried much more in the past without much success. Political power also tends to lead to corruption, as the large majority of politicians are liars and deceitful.

All I know is, I'm not licking any boots.

[John Shaw]

Lets do both and see what happens. One method has been tried much more in the past without much success. Political power also tends to lead to corruption, as the large majority of politicians are liars and deceitful.

All I know is, I'm not licking any boots.

The battle between minarchists and anarcho capitalists is legendary. By legendary I mean very, very old. Old enough that liberty fogeys don't even bother saying "Cain't we all jes' get along, ya'll?" anymore.

New schisms in the movement, like the FSP, create a shiny new battleground to fight over the same old shit.

And don't even get me started on the no money having welfare baby dirty hippy dumpster diving "Left Libertarians"...

The only thing that would stir up even more shit at this point is if the Objectivist crowd started getting involved in NH. They'd buy up all the Porc Manors and say "F.U. hippies, get a fucking job!" while farting out considerable amounts of their considerable amounts of money while dancing the can-can and testing the boundaries of the ancap dedication to nonaggression.

Believe me, I know a bunch of them. The only thing messier than Ancap vs. Minarchist is Randroid vs. Anyone else in the freedom movement in general.

This Nyquil induced post was brought to you by the Letter A and the Number 2. And Nyquil.

[Robin]

nice song name drop

havent listened to  "Anarchy Burger" in a long time 

[FTL_Mark]

...and Mark can't stop stammering long enough to drive his very valid points home...

I hate my stammering, but swear I don't do it as much in real life. It is the result of talking to a pig-headed madman, I swear.

[John Shaw]

...and Mark can't stop stammering long enough to drive his very valid points home...

I hate my stammering, but swear I don't do it as much in real life. It is the result of talking to a pig-headed madman, I swear.

Don't worry about it. From what I've heard, most people would rather listen to a bad idea from you than a good idea from Ian anyhow.

[anarchir]

...and Mark can't stop stammering long enough to drive his very valid points home...

I hate my stammering, but swear I don't do it as much in real life. It is the result of talking to a pig-headed madman, I swear.

Don't worry about it. From what I've heard, most people would rather listen to a bad idea from you than a good idea from Ian anyhow.

I'm sure I stammer more than you Mark, but if you were to ask anyone IRL they most likely wouldnt have noticed.  I think it is more noticeable on air since we are hanging on to your every word and not able to pick up on visual ques.

[dalebert]

I don't necessarily have a problem with Ian "trashing" politicos as long as it's honest.  I would, however, be among those who feel he is rather unreceptive to potentially constructive criticism.  I think he's far too much in arms when someone expresses an opinion about the specific tactics of any outside-the-system activism at all.  I feel that I've witnessed a lot that I don't think was productive or was even counter-productive, e.g. Jesse's gardening escapades.  I'm forgiving, of course, because it is something relatively new, compared to politics.  Let me repeat that -- relatively new, compared to politics.  And that doesn't mean I readily accept all criticism.  I think a lot of it has a poor basis but we can and should learn from what seems to work and what doesn't seem to and always be scrutinizing what we can do differently or better.  In general I feel very encouraged, but I don't want to fall into that trap of getting comfortable.  It's kind of like people who dis those complaining about America because there are worse countries out there.  Yeah, well that doesn't mean things are a-okay and that we shouldn't try to make it better.  The same goes for our tactics here.

[Cognitive Dissident]

I hope the irony isn't lost on the reader that bitching about what others think is activism is a direct result of liberty being preached, tested, and refined.  We're the folks who are supposed to be ready to grasp the implications of liberty and use them to become Zeno's better human being.

Think about it.  

You people better get comfortable with what the activists you've invited to New Hampshire are doing, because it's exactly what liberty prescribes.  People are damned well going to get pissed when "we win" and others get to assert their liberty.  Or, maybe we should try to be understanding, use some humble and gracious reasoning and put the best construction on everything.  I could quote Paul the Apostle (and I know how Mark would love that, even though it's not necessarily he who needs the preaching) WRT to the discreet way we should handle disagreements amongst ourselves (the citation I'm thinking of isn't really about religion, but it is actually practical advice about keeping disagreements amongst ourselves civil and avoiding looking like the assholes outside our relatively peculiar group.)  

Realize also that collectivism is actually creeping into the discussion ("those politicos," versus "those anarchists"--derisive terms, to some, deliberately used for demonstration.)  Every individual, regardless of which "camp" one gravitates toward, has his own thoughts and his own perspective of what will advance liberty.  The great thing is that if that guy's wrong and you're right, HE gets to fail.  If you're right, YOU get to succeed.  As Mark pointed out, you can say "I'm a liberty lover, and I wouldn't do that," if asked.  You can also be gracious about it and point out that your "opponent" is not evil--he just believes there's a different path than you do (sounds a bit like Republicans regarding Democrats, and vice versa, I know, but the ability to express this even if he doesn't feel much good will is actually a good attribute a politician often has.)

It's all very nasty, and I'd rather this dirty laundry wasn't hung out in front of "non-believers."  The difference of opinion isn't the nasty part--the open disdain is.  

That's easy for me to say, though, because I'm just some bitter asshole who happens to benefit from such different strategies.  

For example: It's much easier for me to get the medicine that works best for me because people were once "sitting in the fucking state house doing their bullshit politics" here in Colorado to make it so that living a life of less pain doesn't have to be "activism" that could wind me up in prison.  I'd much rather get to choose how to apply my activism, thank you.

Counter example: Those people "poisoning the well" would be handy to speak and protest on my behalf if I were in New Hampshire someday and arrested without benefit of such a law (assuming I'm there before politicians get their heads out of their asses.)  It's about that time I'd be pretty fucking happy they're out there "poisoning the well" because the current laws are bullshit.

Fuck it.  Go forth and sin no more.  If your brother poisons the well, dig another well for him to poison.  If he wastes your time trying to get you to vote or campaign, and you don't believe in it, give him more of your time, used in a way that you think is effective, in addition to the bullshit he's dragged you through...and if your brother fails to treat you that way in return, forgive him for it 70 x 7 times, and continue to be loving and supporting of his goals and achievements, even if you'd do it differently, because we're really all looking for the right to do just that--live our own lives and act as we see fit--and that IS the bigger picture.

Some shit like that--I can't believe this really has to be said--seems some poor SOB already said it a long time ago, before any of us were around, and they tell me it was hell, what he went through when the world wasn't ready to listen.

Addendum:Various edits were made that I didn't feel like tracking, because I'm actually pretty pissed about this bullshit attitude, from both sides.

[TimeLady Victorious]

And don't even get me started on the no money having welfare baby dirty hippy dumpster diving "Left Libertarians"...

[John Shaw]

And don't even get me started on the no money having welfare baby dirty hippy dumpster diving "Left Libertarians"...

That was sarcasm mode, it may not have come across. I was just making an example of what some of the minarchists think, to point out that both sides have their assholes representing.

Hate government.

Yes, I use the word hate. There are folks who think that strong words cause anger. They're right. Sometimes shaking things up is good.

Hate the bureaucracy that people use to hide behind bad deeds. It fucking sucks and if you don't tell people it's bad, and yes, evil, they turn a blind eye to it.

If you hate government and want nothing to do with it, awesome. I'm down with that. That's my bag, even.

If you hate government and you think you can monkeywrench that shit from inside? Go for it. It's not my thing, right? But if you think you can pull off some awesome fuckup from inside, yay you.

If you hate government and you think that living on a fucking shithole/farm sharing crap that other people have thrown away and breeding fucking Emus? You go girl!

If you hate government and you think you can make things better by making shittons of coin in the real world and backing up peeps financially? Rock the fuck on.

If you hate government and only wanna trade in animal skins, weed, and precious metals? Keep it real yo.

If you hate government and you think creating a situation where cops beat on you on camera for jaywalking? Fucking-A. You go do that.



Just hate the fucking government and do something about it, dammit. Keep telling people that government is bad. Hurting people is bad. Robbing people is bad. Bad bad bad. Evil evil evil. Pound it into their fucking heads already. It's bad to hurt people, and they are hurting people, and here's how. That's it. Nothing else matters. At all.

You can't win a fucking war of ideas without having the goddamned moral high ground.


Now I gotta bitch at some people.

Anarchists: (Or thesaurus of the week placeholder word) A little protip, because all ya'll anarchists (My fucking team, btw, since 2007) haven't grasped it yet: Some minarchists? Yeah, they ain't. And you fuckers keep trying to out them while they're infiltrating. And they can't say anything because they'll be exposed. Make sure you know the moles from the real minarchists before you sling shit at them. You might be hurting someone you love. Also, you have bigger fucking enemies to fight. I'm just as, if not more, paranoid about well poisoning than the next guy, but for Christ's sake, pick your fights already. Worry about the fucking dudes with the guns, not the people who are trying (Even if it's not your way) to help.

Real Minarchists: The more understanding you have of freedom, while still supporting state power, the more hypocritical you have to be, aight? If you get how bad government is, and you still think you should use it? Check yeself. Think about that. Now, if you know that and you're just trying to fuck it up from within? Cool beans. Just keep your fucking heads on straight, because you're risking a serious mindfuck dragon chase and you aren't gonna have any friends if the shit hits the fan. Just sayin'.

Activists and Free Staters: Get off your fucking high horse already. You can brag when your fucking shenanigans deliver the goods. Until then, you're just another asshole like the rest of us, trying to do it your way and seeing if it works. And don't fucking cite Ghandi and Hippies and shit, because they were fighting for shit that a lot of people actually wanted, not trying to dismantle a several thousand year old concept that is so ingrained and drawn from the structure of the family unit itself that it'll probably take generations of education to turn back. There won't be a "Canario in front of a tank" picture that changes the world. (Sorry Lauren) So lighten the fuck up.


INTERESTING GAME. THE ONLY WAY TO WIN IS NOT TO PLAY.

[TimeLady Victorious]

Yeah I got that, it's just that I don't like how (seemingly) every libertarian is wrapped up with anarcho-capitalism.

Or at least almost every libertarian I've interacted with on the Internet, gah.

And my emu farm will be the envy of emu farmers everywhere. Come slaughter your own!

[John Shaw]

Yeah I got that, it's just that I don't like how (seemingly) every libertarian is wrapped up with anarcho-capitalism.

You're talking to the wrong crowd. Of course, the minarchist types are heavily populated with Objectivists, which you may not like, either.