"Shouldn't the atheists be getting upset at my transition to pantheism?" -Ian

[orion]

Well, nothing really. And it could very well be true for all I know. All I'm saying is that "it works for me, therefor it will work for everyone/others" is an unscientific statement and a perfect example of anecdotal evidence. The statement is also a red flag that the person saying it might be suffering from confirmation bias.

I'm pointing it out in the hopes that Ian will re-examine his stance on the issue of the "law of attraction". Because we all know the longer held the belief, the harder it is to change one's mind on the matter. I think he should look into all the possible logical short-fallings before this belief becomes so entrenched that it cannot be uprooted.

"I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their life". - Leo Tolstoy, 1897

All kidding aside, even when you take science to the outer limits it gets really really weird (quantum physics, black holes, other dimensions, etc). Science allows us to shave off a layer of abstraction in reality. I would not be surprised if we shave off layers of abstraction forever.

I agree, it's not good to impose your beliefs on others. What do you think of what I said above?

[DataLifePlus]

Well, nothing really. And it could very well be true for all I know. All I'm saying is that "it works for me, therefor it will work for everyone/others" is an unscientific statement and a perfect example of anecdotal evidence. The statement is also a red flag that the person saying it might be suffering from confirmation bias.

I'm pointing it out in the hopes that Ian will re-examine his stance on the issue of the "law of attraction". Because we all know the longer held the belief, the harder it is to change one's mind on the matter. I think he should look into all the possible logical short-fallings before this belief becomes so entrenched that it cannot be uprooted.

"I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their life". - Leo Tolstoy, 1897

All kidding aside, even when you take science to the outer limits it gets really really weird (quantum physics, black holes, other dimensions, etc). Science allows us to shave off a layer of abstraction in reality. I would not be surprised if we shave off layers of abstraction forever.

I agree, it's not good to impose your beliefs on others. What do you think of what I said above?

I like and agree with what you said. There are plenty of things science currently cannot prove or disprove. And as I said, I'm not saying the "law of attraction" is not a real thing. As far as I know, there is no way to absolutely disprove it. It's very tied in with quantum mechanics, something we know very little about. My problem with the "law of attraction" is how it seems to be followed like a religion; absolutely, yet with no proof.

Also, there appears to be a paradox inherit within the laws of attraction that, in my opinion, goes against the non-aggression principle.

For example, if I were to "think positively" about a job I wanted at the local grocery store, that had no openings, and through the power of the "law of attraction" I get the job. Now surely there are plenty of reasons why a position at the store could have opened up, but let's say that, for sake of argument, the person who's job I now have was hit by a bus. Or arrested for drug possession. Or some other negative event that caused the job to become available occurred.

Am I responsible, since it was my thoughts that transformed into action in the physical world that somehow caused another person harm? By just thinking positively about the desire for a job, have I inadvertently aggressed against my neighbor? Or I am mistaken, and somehow the law of attraction can only manifest things through virtuous and noble actions?

[FTL_Ian]

He's gonna say the same thing he's been saying. He doesn't need evidence. He believes it anyway and that should be good enough, and he doesn't care what you think.

Yep.  I would have laughed at LoA as of a few years ago, so I know where you guys are coming from.

[DataLifePlus]

He's gonna say the same thing he's been saying. He doesn't need evidence. He believes it anyway and that should be good enough, and he doesn't care what you think.

Yep.  I would have laughed at LoA as of a few years ago, so I know where you guys are coming from.

That's a pretty close-minded stance though, don't you think? I mean, if you were having a conversation about liberty with someone and they said, "I don't need evidence. I believe in coercive government anyway and that should be good enough, and I don't care what you think."

Wouldn't you think less of that person's ability to reason? Wouldn't you question everything else they believe?

Also Ian, could you please comment on the LoA-non-aggression paradox question I posted earlier in this thread?

[BonerJoe]

Someday Ian will snap out of Mark's cultish influence.

[DataLifePlus]

Someday Ian will snap out of Mark's cultish influence.

The LoA (thanks for the acronym, Ian) is too crack-pot fringe, even for Mark.

[FTL_Ian]

I find the belief system empowering, so you are asking me to remove that from my life - for what reason?  I used to think that way, and I don't want to anymore. 

I like the idea that I'm on the leading edge of the expansion of the universe and that my intentions and subsequent action are contributing to that expansion.  I like the idea that what I'm wanting and thinking about is what I'm getting.  I like the idea that I can create my own reality.

Thinking positive is fine.  I'm just more deliberate about it, and have attached a few metaphysical beliefs to it.  What's wrong with that? 

[FTL_Ian]

This whole "Law of Attraction" thing really bothers me on the show. I've been meaning to call in or start on thread about it for a while now, but I guess I'll just rant here.

As I see it, as lovers of freedom and liberty, we have all used the tools of rational thought and logic to strip the veil of legitimacy away from coercive government.

Reason and logic are strongly on liberty's side, and we have all sharpened our mental tools by defending it as such. With our tools we have broken down the pseudosciences of not just government, but democracy and collectivism as well.

We are skeptics of government. But my skepticism doesn't stop there. I use the same tools that have led me to believe that government is not valid to weigh the validity of many other things, including big foot, chem trails, lizard men, and the law of attraction.
 
It saddens me on a personal level to see someone like Ian, who I know has the tools to see through such nonsense, fall into the so-called "law of attraction". If it is something Ian believes in, that's fine with me, I just don't really like hearing about it, and I certainly don't like Ian professing it as truth to people on the radio who trust him and believe what he says.

"Seeing it work in your own life" isn't proof enough for anything to be considered truth. I wish Ian would raise his standard of evidence in regards to the law of attraction and maybe apply some of those logical fallacies he (and I) seem to love.

I'd love to get your thoughts on this Ian. Thanks.

Definitely don't call in if you don't like hearing about it, as that will give us an excuse to discuss it.   

It's truth to me.  I have surprised myself with some of the things I've seen.  No need to share them with you, as they are personal, unscientific, and will not be persuasive to you in the least.  I'll instead generally describe the circumstances surrounding them:

I have intended certain unlikely things to happen as "tests", fully prepared to never see them occur (yes, that skeptical voice still yells at me in my head), but then they do.  They are things that would be semi to unlikely to occur, but they do, and I'm quite surprised and pleased by them when they do.

So, for me and many others, this is not nonsense at all.  Please don't be sad for me, I'm not!

[FTL_Ian]

For example, if I were to "think positively" about a job I wanted at the local grocery store, that had no openings, and through the power of the "law of attraction" I get the job. Now surely there are plenty of reasons why a position at the store could have opened up, but let's say that, for sake of argument, the person who's job I now have was hit by a bus. Or arrested for drug possession. Or some other negative event that caused the job to become available occurred.

Am I responsible, since it was my thoughts that transformed into action in the physical world that somehow caused another person harm? By just thinking positively about the desire for a job, have I inadvertently aggressed against my neighbor? Or I am mistaken, and somehow the law of attraction can only manifest things through virtuous and noble actions?

I think many of you talk about the Law of Attraction without really knowing too much about it.  The Law of Attraction states that like attracts like.  What you focus on, you attract.  Focus on the positive, you get more of that.  On the negative, more of that. 

The job example could be answered in different ways.  You don't know what the guy who lost his job was focusing on, if anything at all.  Most live life by default and are not deliberate creators.  These are the "paycheck to paycheck" rat race people.  You needn't be concerned as to why the opportunity presented itself.  It could have been any number of factors.

Or, perhaps in an alternate universe, he is still alive/out of jail, and that "you" never gets his job.  Who knows?

All I know is that if you focus on what you want, the universe seems to set up opportunities for you.  It's up to you to "open the door" however, and seize the opportunity.  Action is always a factor, but your intentions are the biggest factor.  I think some people believe that if you just want, things will happen, and that's LoA, but that's not it at all.

[therealritasue]

I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that positive thinking can help someone achieve their goals. I think the problem that most people have with it is that you're assigning a metaphysical explanation to something that can be explained, at least a little bit, through logic. It makes sense that when one keeps their goals at the forefront of their mind, it is easier for them to anticipate and identify potential opportunities, and that one will probably be more likely to make choices that fall in line with these goals. You state, however, that "the universe lines up opportunities for you".

I mean, sure, you can believe that if you want, and I understand it's completely subjective, but people are having trouble with the lack of logic in the position, understandably.

[Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)]

I find the belief system empowering, so you are asking me to remove that from my life - for what reason?  I used to think that way, and I don't want to anymore. 

I like the idea that I'm on the leading edge of the expansion of the universe and that my intentions and subsequent action are contributing to that expansion.  I like the idea that what I'm wanting and thinking about is what I'm getting.  I like the idea that I can create my own reality.

Thinking positive is fine.  I'm just more deliberate about it, and have attached a few metaphysical beliefs to it.  What's wrong with that? 

Okay I can agree with all of that, except for the metaphysical aspects to it.  LoA is probably empowering and probably gives its believers more confidence in their daily lives which would help to prove that its true.  But I think it is probably simple psychology.  If you're a confident person, you're more likely to get what you want.  I don't see anything metaphysical there.

[Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)]

I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that positive thinking can help someone achieve their goals. I think the problem that most people have with it is that you're assigning a metaphysical explanation to something that can be explained, at least a little bit, through logic. It makes sense that when one keeps their goals at the forefront of their mind, it is easier for them to anticipate and identify potential opportunities, and that one will probably be more likely to make choices that fall in line with these goals. You state, however, that "the universe lines up opportunities for you".

I mean, sure, you can believe that if you want, and I understand it's completely subjective, but people are having trouble with the lack of logic in the position, understandably.

Of course the universe lines up opportunities for you!  But that doesn't mean there's any silly metaphysical bullshit that causes it.  All day long you're presented with new opportunities...they are "Lined Up" for you in a sense and thinking positively and having confidence will help you exploit the opportunities you wish to pursue.  But none of this has anything to do with some metaphysical underlying cause.  The cause is you, because you're taking the actions you need to exploit the opportunities you see and like.  That's it.

[therealritasue]

I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that positive thinking can help someone achieve their goals. I think the problem that most people have with it is that you're assigning a metaphysical explanation to something that can be explained, at least a little bit, through logic. It makes sense that when one keeps their goals at the forefront of their mind, it is easier for them to anticipate and identify potential opportunities, and that one will probably be more likely to make choices that fall in line with these goals. You state, however, that "the universe lines up opportunities for you".

I mean, sure, you can believe that if you want, and I understand it's completely subjective, but people are having trouble with the lack of logic in the position, understandably.

Of course the universe lines up opportunities for you!  But that doesn't mean there's any silly metaphysical bullshit that causes it.  All day long you're presented with new opportunities...they are "Lined Up" for you in a sense and thinking positively and having confidence will help you exploit the opportunities you wish to pursue.  But none of this has anything to do with some metaphysical underlying cause.  The cause is you, because you're taking the actions you need to exploit the opportunities you see and like.  That's it.

Well...the universe doesn't actively "line up" anything. Opportunities are simply conditions that favor your situation. It is up to the person to recognize and take advantage of those opportunities. That's really just semantics, though.

Opportunities don't come into existence solely because of positive thinking and some kind of metaphysical reaction it creates. Opportunities can, however, come into existence because of actions taken by the person as a result of positive thinking. That's my whole point.

[t3soro]

Am I to understand that "carpe diem" has been transformed from optimistic advice into flying pasta?

[FTL_Ian]

Guess I don't understand how you all can be so sure about what the universe doesn't do.  Perhaps there is more to it than you realize.