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TimeLady Victorious

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Re: "Shouldn't the atheists be getting upset at my transition to pantheism?" -Ia
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2008, 08:42:04 PM »

Oh noes, a pantheist.

Quick, summon some Christians, Jews, and Muslims to burn the pagan!
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SnowDog

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Re: "Shouldn't the atheists be getting upset at my transition to pantheism?" -Ia
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2008, 09:03:53 PM »

...  FTL_Ian on August 21, 2008, 09:21:36 PM
"Shouldn't the atheists be getting upset at my transition to pantheism?"


Indeed i am.  In my estimation, the pantheism thing is a complete cop-out that Ian is using to smooth out conversations with potential liberty lovers.  I am very impressed with the success of this approach from what I have heard of his interactions from religious callers.  They see him as less of a threat to that particular part of their world view and thus are more accepting to his other views.  I get it.  I still think it's a bad approach because it's a failure to acknowledge that the fight against religion is a fight against government at a basic level.

Mark, however, does believe his rhetoric (at least on this one issue).

I could be wrong of course, but I don't believe that Ian thinks that there is God in everything -- at least not a conscious God. So my theory is that Ian is just trying to avoid the word 'atheism', like he avoids many other words which he believes aren't understood by the general populace in a way that he agrees. He also avoids the words anarchist, libertarian, capitalist, and anarcho-capitalist. So, instead of being an atheist, anarcho-capitalist, libertarian, he thinks of himself as a pantheist voluntarist.

Craig

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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: "Shouldn't the atheists be getting upset at my transition to pantheism?" -Ia
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2008, 09:08:14 PM »

Quote
the fight against religion is a fight against government at a basic level.
HUH?  That doesn't make any sense at all!  Religion is voluntary, government is not.  There's no correlation.

...  FTL_Ian on August 21, 2008, 09:21:36 PM
"Shouldn't the atheists be getting upset at my transition to pantheism?"


Indeed i am.  In my estimation, the pantheism thing is a complete cop-out that Ian is using to smooth out conversations with potential liberty lovers.  I am very impressed with the success of this approach from what I have heard of his interactions from religious callers.  They see him as less of a threat to that particular part of their world view and thus are more accepting to his other views.  I get it.  I still think it's a bad approach because it's a failure to acknowledge that the fight against religion is a fight against government at a basic level.

Mark, however, does believe his rhetoric (at least on this one issue).

I could be wrong of course, but I don't believe that Ian thinks that there is God in everything -- at least not a conscious God. So my theory is that Ian is just trying to avoid the word 'atheism', like he avoids many other words which he believes aren't understood by the general populace in a way that he agrees. He also avoids the words anarchist, libertarian, capitalist, and anarcho-capitalist. So, instead of being an atheist, anarcho-capitalist, libertarian, he thinks of himself as a pantheist voluntarist.

Craig



Many religious people believe that there is God in everything, or that God IS everything and that there is not a conscious God making our decisions for us.  Most Jews think that way even though most of us would not consider ourselves Pantheist per-se.  Pantheism makes a lot more sense to me than militant atheism.  It also makes a lot more sense to me than believing in religious Determinism like some Christians and Muslims and Buddhists believe.  At least Pantheism doesn't clash with the belief in Free Will nor does it leave a big gaping hole for Luddites to suppress science.
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burnthebeautiful

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Re: "Shouldn't the atheists be getting upset at my transition to pantheism?" -Ian
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2008, 09:10:30 PM »

Yes, it does make me a little upset. Pantheism is mystical unscientific illogical unreasonable stoner hippie bullshit. It goes against the whole idea of rational, logical thought. "Good things happen to you when you think positively, not because of rational scientific reasons, but because there's a magical positive energy unicorn flying around in the sky!"  :roll:
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Re: "Shouldn't the atheists be getting upset at my transition to pantheism?" -Ian
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2008, 09:13:19 PM »

Yes, it does make me a little upset. Pantheism is mystical unscientific illogical unreasonable stoner hippie bullshit. It goes against the whole idea of rational, logical thought. "Good things happen to you when you think positively, not because of rational scientific reasons, but because there's a magical positive energy unicorn flying around in the sky!"  :roll:
Huh?  It doesn't have to be unscientific or illogical.  The way you put it certainly makes it seem ridiculous, but I don't think that's what Pantheism is about.  Pantheists believe that God is the universe in totality.  It's just another way of explaining creation, except that this one doesn't violate anything we know about science.  It doesn't negate free will nor scientific pursuit.  Learning science is learning the laws of God in Pantheism.  How is that illogical or unscientific?
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Re: "Shouldn't the atheists be getting upset at my transition to pantheism?" -Ia
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2008, 09:42:49 PM »

Yes, it does make me a little upset. Pantheism is mystical unscientific illogical unreasonable stoner hippie bullshit. It goes against the whole idea of rational, logical thought. "Good things happen to you when you think positively, not because of rational scientific reasons, but because there's a magical positive energy unicorn flying around in the sky!"  :roll:
Huh?  It doesn't have to be unscientific or illogical.  The way you put it certainly makes it seem ridiculous, but I don't think that's what Pantheism is about.  Pantheists believe that God is the universe in totality.  It's just another way of explaining creation, except that this one doesn't violate anything we know about science.  It doesn't negate free will nor scientific pursuit.  Learning science is learning the laws of God in Pantheism.  How is that illogical or unscientific?

It's illogical in this sense: If the God that is in everything is not a conscious God, then you're using a meaningless term. And if the God IS a conscious God, then you're accepting the idea of a conscious God without evidence.

More importantly, the rules of science and logic demand that all assertions be backed with evidence, and that all existents have an identity. A God without identity is a non-entity and a contradiction.

Craig

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Re: "Shouldn't the atheists be getting upset at my transition to pantheism?" -Ia
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2008, 09:50:17 PM »

Yes, it does make me a little upset. Pantheism is mystical unscientific illogical unreasonable stoner hippie bullshit. It goes against the whole idea of rational, logical thought. "Good things happen to you when you think positively, not because of rational scientific reasons, but because there's a magical positive energy unicorn flying around in the sky!"  :roll:
Huh?  It doesn't have to be unscientific or illogical.  The way you put it certainly makes it seem ridiculous, but I don't think that's what Pantheism is about.  Pantheists believe that God is the universe in totality.  It's just another way of explaining creation, except that this one doesn't violate anything we know about science.  It doesn't negate free will nor scientific pursuit.  Learning science is learning the laws of God in Pantheism.  How is that illogical or unscientific?

It's illogical in this sense: If the God that is in everything is not a conscious God, then you're using a meaningless term. And if the God IS a conscious God, then you're accepting the idea of a conscious God without evidence.

More importantly, the rules of science and logic demand that all assertions be backed with evidence, and that all existents have an identity. A God without identity is a non-entity and a contradiction.

Craig


The evidence is that the universe exists.
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Re: "Shouldn't the atheists be getting upset at my transition to pantheism?" -Ia
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2008, 10:30:59 PM »

The evidence is that the universe exists.

Oooh no you don't JB!

Did a conscious god "create" this universe?
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DogOn

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Re: "Shouldn't the atheists be getting upset at my transition to pantheism?" -Ia
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2008, 10:37:08 PM »

It's illogical in this sense: If the God that is in everything is not a conscious God, then you're using a meaningless term. And if the God IS a conscious God, then you're accepting the idea of a conscious God without evidence.

More importantly, the rules of science and logic demand that all assertions be backed with evidence, and that all existents have an identity. A God without identity is a non-entity and a contradiction.

Great post, I think you summed up the flaws of Pantheism/"god is everything" fallacy pretty concisely, although I'm sure it won't cut any ground with the Pantheists here. Unfortunately people just seem to caught up in mysticism, and the need to feel part of something greater than themselves to let this go.

Pantheism really was the natural evolution from the old world gods. People like to believe in shit, maybe believe when they die that isn't the end, or that theres something magical and supernatural going on, but with the old world gods, you really have to fuck your logic centers to buy into it, mostly because the people who invented them knew fuck all about the universe, and where often bigoted and supported slavery.

If you actually read what it says in the holy books, and not what the followers want to pick and choose and "interpret", most religions (Islam, Judaism, Christianity) have really dumb ass miracle stories, like floods that encompass the entire earth, people coming back to life, people being miraculously cured, when we know this stuff is impossible, and the only way people can actually buy it is because it happened in the way old past, and they can come up with some nicely fitting bullshit about why those things don't happen any more, and why god was happy to show himself to people in the past but not anymore.

Also there are alot of backward claims about the earth being the center of the universe, and the sun and the stars being different things, light being made before stars, and the heaven being in the sky, hell being in the center of the earth. There are plenty abhorrent commands in old god holy books too, like kill homosexuals, or its okay to stone kids to death or own slaves, so you get to avoid that aswell.

With Pantheism you get to keep all the warm fuzzy mysticism, without having to acknowledge any concrete claims about the universe or follow bullshit "morals". you're totally free to make up whatever religion you want and claim it to be true without reality getting in the way, and if you make it as nebulous as "god is existence" or "god is math and science", then you have nothing to claw at your intelligence to tell you to stop buying into the bullshit.

As of yet I still haven't seen a single Pantheist on this board actually define what claims they actually believe, although usually it includes some vague bullshit about order/spirituality of the universe, and handily includes/supports and personal preferences and desires the person may have.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 10:40:59 PM by fatcat »
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Re: "Shouldn't the atheists be getting upset at my transition to pantheism?" -Ia
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2008, 10:41:49 PM »

Oh noes, a pantheist.

Quick, summon some Christians, Jews, and Muslims to burn the pagan!

I'll bring the marshmallows!  :D
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Re: "Shouldn't the atheists be getting upset at my transition to pantheism?" -Ian
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2008, 11:37:43 AM »

Oh noes, a pantheist.

Quick, summon some Christians, Jews, and Muslims to burn the pagan!

HEY, We can have an Inquisition. 

CONFESS! CONFESS!
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blackie

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Re: "Shouldn't the atheists be getting upset at my transition to pantheism?" -Ia
« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2008, 12:29:31 PM »

As of yet I still haven't seen a single Pantheist on this board actually define what claims they actually believe,
I'm a pantheist, and I believe the claim that you are a douche.
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Selfish Gene

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Re: "Shouldn't the atheists be getting upset at my transition to pantheism?" -Ian
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2008, 12:33:28 PM »

Doesn't all of that noodly goodness have to permeate into government bureaucrats if you believe it's everywhere?
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FTL_Ian

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Re: "Shouldn't the atheists be getting upset at my transition to pantheism?" -Ia
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2008, 12:34:03 PM »

...  FTL_Ian on August 21, 2008, 09:21:36 PM
"Shouldn't the atheists be getting upset at my transition to pantheism?"


Indeed i am.  In my estimation, the pantheism thing is a complete cop-out that Ian is using to smooth out conversations with potential liberty lovers.  I am very impressed with the success of this approach from what I have heard of his interactions from religious callers.  They see him as less of a threat to that particular part of their world view and thus are more accepting to his other views.  I get it.  I still think it's a bad approach because it's a failure to acknowledge that the fight against religion is a fight against government at a basic level.

Mark, however, does believe his rhetoric (at least on this one issue).

Good point, but that's not the reason.  I've seen and continue to see thr Law of Attraction work, and that drew me to pantheism.  I'd loved atheism because it was all about believing in yourself instead of some deity.  Pantheism is also about believing in yourself, but moreso.  The pantheistic view doesn't stifle like monotheistic religions; it encourages expansion.  It doesn't hold judgement over your actions.  There is nothing to worship.  

There is nothing false about me proclaiming my pantheism.

We can all be Neo, if we choose it.
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Re: "Shouldn't the atheists be getting upset at my transition to pantheism?" -Ia
« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2008, 12:47:47 PM »

Good point, but that's not the reason.  I've seen and continue to see thr Law of Attraction work, and that drew me to pantheism.  I'd loved atheism because it was all about believing in yourself instead of some deity.  Pantheism is also about believing in yourself, but moreso.  The pantheistic view doesn't stifle like monotheistic religions; it encourages expansion.  It doesn't hold judgement over your actions.  There is nothing to worship.  

There is nothing false about me proclaiming my pantheism.

We can all be Neo, if we choose it.

Good on you for sticking to you guns. What you choose to believe in is a fundamental aspect of the freedom lovers way. That said, if it starts becoming a regular part of what you're pitching on your show, you can count me the fuck out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
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