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TimeLady Victorious

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Re: "Happy Armistice Day."
« Reply #45 on: November 16, 2010, 03:48:07 PM »

What I want to know is, if the goverment doesn't like what I do with my own property, why don't THEY leave? Why is it the individual who has to leave?

Oh that's right; because the state is an armed mob and they'll kill you if they want to. Perfectly moral.

Or it could be because if you hate living here so much maybe you'd be happier elsewhere.

Why are some people forever holding up Somalia as an example of  anarchy? There must be at least ten groups vying for power there. 

Because Somalia literally has no government. It is a place where you have people negotiating with people, with pretty much no government at all. By that definition, it should be the libertarian paradise.
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MacFall

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Re: "Happy Armistice Day."
« Reply #46 on: November 16, 2010, 04:24:07 PM »

...except that is not, and never was, the definition of a libertarian paradise. The absence of the state is a consequence of libertarianism's central tenet. It is not libertarianism itself. Which if you'd READ MY FREAKING POST, you would have gotten already. But I'm sure it's much more convenient for you to keep setting up the same old strawman.
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I am an anarchist! HOOGA BOOGA BOOGA!!

TimeLady Victorious

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Re: "Happy Armistice Day."
« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2010, 04:25:24 PM »

...except that is not, and never was, the definition of a libertarian paradise. The absence of the state is a consequence of libertarianism's central tenet. It is not libertarianism itself. Which if you'd READ MY FREAKING POST, you would have gotten already. But I'm sure it's much more convenient for you to keep setting up the same old strawman.

Just because it's not the libertarianism you think as it would work out in the real world doesn't change it from being what has actually been done in the real world without a state.
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mikehz

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Re: "Happy Armistice Day."
« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2010, 04:32:31 PM »

 I'm not sure how having half a dozen groups all claiming to be the government can be interpreted as an ABSENCE of government. If anything, it’s more of an excess of government.

In any case, pointing to it as some sort of ideal libertarian state is like pointing to North Korea as the ideal world proposed by statists. “What the? You favor Obama? Why don’t you just move to N. Korea, then!”
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MacFall

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Re: "Happy Armistice Day."
« Reply #49 on: November 16, 2010, 04:38:27 PM »

In any case, pointing to it as some sort of ideal libertarian state is like pointing to North Korea as the ideal world proposed by statists. “What the? You favor Obama? Why don’t you just move to N. Korea, then!”

I'm going to have to remember that one for the next time someone uses the Somalia strawman.
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TimeLady Victorious

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Re: "Happy Armistice Day."
« Reply #50 on: November 16, 2010, 04:45:45 PM »

I'm not sure how having half a dozen groups all claiming to be the government can be interpreted as an ABSENCE of government. If anything, it’s more of an excess of government.

In any case, pointing to it as some sort of ideal libertarian state is like pointing to North Korea as the ideal world proposed by statists. “What the? You favor Obama? Why don’t you just move to N. Korea, then!”


Unless you can actually point to a successful "state" with no government, Somalia is pretty much *the* modern example of an area with no functioning government.

No True Scotsman, much?
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MacFall

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Re: "Happy Armistice Day."
« Reply #51 on: November 16, 2010, 07:35:31 PM »

No.

The anarchist's definition of a stateless society has always been and is now a society unaffected by a state. There is no way any sane person can point at Somalia and say, "look, no state!" unless they are joking.
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velojym

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Re: "Happy Armistice Day."
« Reply #52 on: November 16, 2010, 08:39:17 PM »

Somalia found itself in a sudden state of relative statelessness, after having spent much time under the thumb. It takes a bit for folks to get used to being free, and petty warlords tend to step in to take advantage of the chaos. So, nope... not stateless, and the population there hasn't really prepared itself for a sudden change anyway. I mean, it's like expecting a bunch of IRS agents to open a retail outlet and run it successfully.

I understand, however, that where the Somalis have been left in relative peace, they're thriving compared to what they were before... and I'm not talking about the pirates.

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We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest periods of human history, the stage of rule by brute force.
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TimeLady Victorious

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Re: "Happy Armistice Day."
« Reply #53 on: November 17, 2010, 04:00:36 AM »

No.

The anarchist's definition of a stateless society has always been and is now a society unaffected by a state. There is no way any sane person can point at Somalia and say, "look, no state!" unless they are joking.

Except there is no society that has not been affected by a state. Not now, anyway.
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Pizzly

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Re: "Happy Armistice Day."
« Reply #54 on: November 17, 2010, 11:20:28 AM »

I see an argument going on here, and it appears that you people are using different definitions for a state. It's pointless to attempt to argue if you guys aren't even arguing about the same thing.
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MacFall

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Re: "Happy Armistice Day."
« Reply #55 on: November 17, 2010, 12:13:43 PM »

Yes, I agree. I'm using the generally accepted definitions, and TLV is making up her own, rhetorically convenient ones. This reminds me of the time I was trying to convince someone that increasing the money supply doesn't make people more wealthy, and he was all like "nuh-uh, money means wealth u idiot"

So, just one last response to TLV: So what? There is also no such thing as a cure for cancer today. That doesn't mean there can't or shouldn't be one.
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TimeLady Victorious

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Re: "Happy Armistice Day."
« Reply #56 on: November 17, 2010, 04:21:34 PM »

Yes, I agree. I'm using the generally accepted definitions, and TLV is making up her own, rhetorically convenient ones. This reminds me of the time I was trying to convince someone that increasing the money supply doesn't make people more wealthy, and he was all like "nuh-uh, money means wealth u idiot"

So, just one last response to TLV: So what? There is also no such thing as a cure for cancer today. That doesn't mean there can't or shouldn't be one.

Except it seems really as if you're the one making up your own definitions for things.

I'm using the definitions most people use. You're the one who seems to be making shit up.

There's a difference between rhetorical wanking and seeing how ideas actually play out in real life. What you're saying reminds me of a hard red Commie saying that Stalin betrayed the revolution.
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