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MacFall

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Re: "Happy Armistice Day."
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2010, 12:53:40 PM »

More importantly, in the first you have the freedom NOT to starve if you're willing to get off your ass and work, and not be a complete dick to the other productive people around you.
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TimeLady Victorious

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Re: "Happy Armistice Day."
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2010, 01:11:53 PM »

More importantly, in the first you have the freedom NOT to starve if you're willing to get off your ass and work, and not be a complete dick to the other productive people around you.

Not true.
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MacFall

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Re: "Happy Armistice Day."
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2010, 01:54:18 PM »

So are you saying we need a parasitic political class in order to have food?
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TimeLady Victorious

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Re: "Happy Armistice Day."
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2010, 02:05:06 PM »

So are you saying we need a parasitic political class in order to have food?

No, I'm saying that there are a lot of people out there who work their asses off and don't make enough to feed themselves or their families. This is a logical part of the capitalist "free market" where you would have the duty to accumulate as much money as you can. This can be seen as an obvious example in the factories of the 18th and 19th centuries.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2010, 02:09:46 PM by TimeLady Victorious »
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MacFall

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Re: "Happy Armistice Day."
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2010, 02:06:36 PM »

And you'll only find such people in places where they live under parasitic states that inhibit wealth creation and consume it when it is created.
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TimeLady Victorious

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Re: "Happy Armistice Day."
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2010, 02:10:14 PM »

And you'll only find such people in places where they live under parasitic states that inhibit wealth creation and consume it when it is created.

Again, not true, unless you consider 19th century America to be a wholly parasitic state.

Unless you're playing the game in which the whole world is filled with parasites, which is bullshit. You may as well say that they should die, and decrease the useless population.
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MacFall

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Re: "Happy Armistice Day."
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2010, 03:11:59 PM »

All states are parasitic. They consume much and produce little, and that which they do produce is of poor quality and made at a high monopoly price.
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TimeLady Victorious

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Re: "Happy Armistice Day."
« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2010, 12:49:51 AM »

All states are parasitic. They consume much and produce little, and that which they do produce is of poor quality and made at a high monopoly price.

Well, the only place where you won't find a state is Somalia. By what you've said, it should be paradise because there is no government there.

Seriously, why don't you move there? I'm not trolling, I'd honestly like to know why.

Besides, if the "government" always provides shitty service, then how come the social democracies of Europe generally have a higher GDP, better health care, and are safer than the United States?
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 12:57:18 AM by TimeLady Victorious »
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MacFall

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Re: "Happy Armistice Day."
« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2010, 12:57:11 AM »

Because this is my home, and I'm not leaving it.

But anyway, there is government in Somalia. There are UN-supported thugs fighting tribal thugs for political dominance. Somalia is not a post-state society. Nor does Somali culture have a particularly high respect for private property, which is necessary for civil society to exist.

As Robert Murphy pointed out in this article, getting rid of territorial states is not the only requirement for a peaceful and free society, but it is a requirement. If a society lacks the ideology that makes civilization possible, then any state that such a society creates will lack the same ideology, and will therefore be incapable of solving the problems of that society. But if a society DOES have that ideology, then the only thing a state will do is prevent it from functioning organically.
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TimeLady Victorious

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Re: "Happy Armistice Day."
« Reply #39 on: November 16, 2010, 12:58:13 AM »

Because this is my home, and I'm not leaving it.

But anyway, there is government in Somalia. There are UN-supported thugs fighting tribal thugs for political dominance. Somalia is not a post-state society. Nor does Somali culture have a particularly high respect for private property, which is necessary for civil society to exist.

As Robert Murphy pointed out in this article, getting rid of territorial states is not the only requirement for a peaceful and free society, but it is a requirement. If a society lacks the ideology that makes civilization possible, then any state that such a society creates will lack the same ideology, and will therefore be incapable of solving the problems of that society. But if a society DOES have that ideology, then the only thing a state will do is prevent it from functioning organically.

So it's not a stateless society because you say it's not. Gotcha.

The UN-backed government has little power in Somalia beyond Mogadishu, anyway.
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MacFall

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Re: "Happy Armistice Day."
« Reply #40 on: November 16, 2010, 01:02:45 AM »

No, it's not a stateless society because it has a state (an organization claiming a territorial monopoly on legalized violence). And most of the violence in the country is either caused by it or in response to it.

Also, I notice how you conveniently ignored the rest of my post. I won't bother to repeat myself, because I'm sure that if you had any interest in the points I made therein you would have read it the first time.
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TimeLady Victorious

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Re: "Happy Armistice Day."
« Reply #41 on: November 16, 2010, 01:08:34 AM »

No, it's not a stateless society because it has a state (an organization claiming a territorial monopoly on legalized violence). And most of the violence in the country is either caused by it or in response to it.

Also, I notice how you conveniently ignored the rest of my post. I won't bother to repeat myself, because I'm sure that if you had any interest in the points I made therein you would have read it the first time.

No, it's not. What power does this "state" of Somalia have? What army does it have? Police force? Functioning parliament?

And I ignored your points because apparently you expect every stateless society to be exactly the way YOU want it to be, when in this place called "reality" it's not going to be the way you want it.
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MacFall

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Re: "Happy Armistice Day."
« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2010, 11:05:54 AM »

The ICU (a state organization) currently controls most of Somalia. The instability is largely caused by groups backed by the UN (a state organization) and tribal forces (state organizations). The only non-state organizations involved in the conflict are the radical Islamists, though if they were to take over they would almost certainly want to establish a state. So, no, Somalia is NOT a post-state society. It is a land contested by multiple states. But so is Afghanistan, and nobody is using Afghanistan as a strawman against anarchy. Somalia is just the favorite strawman of the media who are pointing at the various state factions going at each other and saying, "look what happens when you don't have a state!" But what they mean by "no state" is a lack of a single, unified, largely unchallenged state. But what anarchists mean and have always meant by "no state" is a lack of state organizations shaping society. Two states in conflict shape a society just as easily, and often more violently, than one unchallenged state.

Quote
And I ignored your points because apparently you expect every stateless society to be exactly the way YOU want it to be, when in this place called "reality" it's not going to be the way you want it.

Apparently you ignored my points without ever having READ THEM, because that's not what I said at all. In fact, I said something rather strongly to the contrary.
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mikehz

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Re: "Happy Armistice Day."
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2010, 02:17:03 PM »

Why are some people forever holding up Somalia as an example of  anarchy? There must be at least ten groups vying for power there. 

Also, Iím not sure why statists are always insisting, ďIf you donít like it here, leave!Ē Do THEY approve of every last thing the government does? If not, then why donít THEY leave? (My personal favorite answer when asked why I donít leave is ďI canít afford the exit tax.Ē)
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MacFall

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Re: "Happy Armistice Day."
« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2010, 02:22:31 PM »

What I want to know is, if the goverment doesn't like what I do with my own property, why don't THEY leave? Why is it the individual who has to leave?

Oh that's right; because the state is an armed mob and they'll kill you if they want to. Perfectly moral.
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