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Free Talk Live => The Polling Pit => Topic started by: Alex Libman 15 on September 26, 2009, 02:44:36 PM

Title: Blind parents who want blind children
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on September 26, 2009, 02:44:36 PM
Based on the witch-burning I'm getting over this issue on another forum (http://www.debatepolitics.com/hear-me-gripe/57036-alex-libman-lunatic.html), thus just might be my most controversial opinion yet...
Title: Re: Blind parents who want blind children
Post by: BonerJoe on September 26, 2009, 02:46:27 PM
Initiating force sux.
Title: Re: Blind parents who want blind children
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on September 26, 2009, 03:49:51 PM
They didn't initiate force, they have birth to a baby that shares their disability.

My arguments from that forum:

Quote
I agree that deprivation of the ability to communicate with the outside world, beatings that could result in brain damage, and senseless mutilation definitely do violate the child's (negative) right to emancipation.

The issue of some blind parents wanting blind children is something that makes a lot more sense once you do some research on the blind culture, think about it for a while, and really contemplate how different the parents' life experience would be from their sighted children. The idea of having children who perceive the world so differently must be terrifying to them... Outlawing artificial blindness would in many cases result in those children never being born in the first place!

Do you really believe that death / non-existence is better than blindness?!

And what gives you the right to force that opinion on someone else?!
Title: Re: Blind parents who want blind children
Post by: BonerJoe on September 26, 2009, 04:31:48 PM
They didn't initiate force, they have birth to a baby that shares their disability.

Then what the fuck is with "and have him or her surgically blinded after birth."?
Title: Re: Blind parents who want blind children
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on September 26, 2009, 05:16:17 PM
A highly subjective medical procedure, like circumcision, sex change (which can also be done under the authority of parents rights), or even whatever Michael Jackson did to himself.

Children have the right to life and to emancipation, but their parents do get to make medical decisions, including denying treatment for religious reasons, etc.
Title: Re: Blind parents who want blind children
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on September 26, 2009, 06:26:40 PM
Cutting out your kids eyes is not comparable to cutting off  a quarter cm of a completely pointless flap of skin.
Title: Re: Blind parents who want blind children
Post by: Bill Brasky on September 26, 2009, 07:43:57 PM
Parents are referred to as guardians and custodians for a reason. 
Title: Re: Blind parents who want blind children
Post by: hellbilly on September 26, 2009, 08:06:41 PM
Libman- how far do parents' rights go?

What about those people who are born with no skin, should they be allowed to flay their children?
Title: Re: Blind parents who want blind children
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on September 27, 2009, 04:29:09 AM
Cutting out your kids eyes is not comparable to cutting off a quarter cm of a completely pointless flap of skin.

Yes it is.  Semitic cultures see the foreskin as useless or even harmful.  Those blind parents see eyesight the same way.  You really need to meditate on what it would be like to be blind, to be a member of the blind community, to perceive the world exclusively through your other senses, which then become strengthened...  and to have a child that is completely different from you from birth, who would have a very hard time understanding why his mommy and daddy don't see the world as s\he does...  Many blind people want to have blind children, or none at all!

By outlawing this procedure, you will discourage millions of first-world blind people from reproducing.  Like I've said before, who are you to say that non-life is better than blindness?!


Parents are referred to as guardians and custodians for a reason.

Yes - because mommy government wants them to do all the hard work of birthing and raising the next generation of its subjects without giving them their natural rights as parents.


Libman - how far do parents' rights go?

Radical blindism / deafism is the most controversial example I can think of, and I can't seem to find any examples of it in real life (yet), but plenty in science fiction (ex) (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112682/).  More common examples of the extremes of parents' rights include prenatal genetic engineering, denying medical treatment for religious reasons, sex change operations, corporal punishment, and so on.  The limits are set by the child's rights to life and emancipation - parents may not do anything that poses a substantial (say p>0.1) risk of death or risk of losing one's ability to be emancipated (loss of mental faculties and ability to communicate).


What about those people who are born with no skin, should they be allowed to flay their children?

I don't think this issue is comparable.  Very few babies are born with missing skin, and those that survive have the missing skin grafted on in the first few months, after which they go on to live very normal lives.  They don't go to a special school with other born-with-some-skin-missing kids, etc.  People who are blind constitute a very different culture, they perceive the world very differently than everyone else.
Title: Re: Blind parents who want blind children
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on September 27, 2009, 06:38:11 AM
This thread is in "The Polling Pit (http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?board=71.0)", a sub-category of "General (http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?board=1.0)".

The baby's physical autonomy does determine its effective "right to life" (because it clearly doesn't own the mother's body that it depends on as a fetus), and I agree that a stronger case can be made for defending that procedure if it's done through genetic engineering rather than postnatal surgery, but I don't think that is medically viable just yet, and genetically-engineered blindness might have more potential side-effects.  Another interesting variable in this debate is the reversibility of this procedure once the child is emancipated, which I imagine would be easier to reverse if the blindness was induced surgically.

I disagree that children should be able to sue their parents for damages - only to emancipate themselves, nullify their "parents tax" obligations, or expose their parents.
Title: Re: Blind parents who want blind children
Post by: Terror Australis on September 27, 2009, 07:08:31 AM
Because of government regulations retarding growth in medical research and development a solution to this problem has possibly been delayed or wont come to fruition.That is the parents will be able to see again through stem cell research or similar science growing them new eyes.

Thus you dont need to remove your children's eyes, the only thing that should be removed is the state....  :P
Title: Re: Blind parents who want blind children
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on September 27, 2009, 08:10:04 AM
I too am optimistic about potential technologies that input artificial sensory data into the brain...


(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/04/GeordiLaForge.jpg) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geordi_La_Forge)         (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/da/Ocularimplant.jpg) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_prosthesis)


... but that's not what this thread is about.  It's about parents' rights.


Title: Re: Blind parents who want blind children
Post by: Terror Australis on September 27, 2009, 08:34:54 AM
I too am optimistic about potential technologies that input artificial sensory data into the brain...


(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/04/GeordiLaForge.jpg) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geordi_La_Forge)         (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/da/Ocularimplant.jpg) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_prosthesis)


... but that's not what this thread is about.  It's about parents' rights.




Even circumcision is going too far.Your child owns their own body as soon as they break free from the placenta.All a parent can do is guide and protect them.
Title: Re: Blind parents who want blind children
Post by: Zhwazi on September 27, 2009, 08:42:08 AM
How about "Parents have the physical power (not the right) to do whatever they want to the kid, but the kid has the right to sue the parent for any body modifications that were made that they disapprove of."

Having other people make decisions for you sucks, but in this case there's no other option. The best thing you can do is hold the fuckers responsible.
Title: Re: Blind parents who want blind children
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on September 27, 2009, 09:21:39 AM
You're still basing your interpretation of natural rights on wishful thinking and not reason.

Parents create children.  They must be allowed to do so on their terms, or they'll simply choose not to create them!

Title: Re: Blind parents who want blind children
Post by: Andy on September 27, 2009, 09:26:15 AM
Quote
You're still basing your interpretation of natural rights on wishful thinking and not reason.

That is the point of rights.
Title: Re: Blind parents who want blind children
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on September 27, 2009, 07:56:09 PM
No, it's not.  The point of rights is societal competitive advantage.  There is no positive right to being born, with or without any of your senses.


Oh, I've finally found the article I was looking for....

From guardian.co.uk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian.co.uk) -- This couple want a deaf child. Should we try to stop them? (http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/mar/09/genetics.medicalresearch) --

Quote
From embryo selection to abortion, fertility treatment to stem cell research, medical advances have created a furious ethical debate. Now MPs must decide how far science should be allowed to go. Robin McKie and Gaby Hinsliff report.  Sunday 9 March 2008

Like any other three-year-old child, Molly has brought joy to her parents. Bright-eyed and cheerful, Molly is also deaf - and that is an issue which vexes her parents, though not for the obvious reasons. Paula Garfield, a theatre director, and her partner, Tomato Lichy, an artist and designer, are also deaf and had hoped to have a child who could not hear.

'We celebrated when we found out about Molly's deafness,' says Lichy. 'Being deaf is not about being disabled, or medically incomplete - it's about being part of a linguistic minority. We're proud, not of the medical aspect of deafness, but of the language we use and the community we live in.'

Now the couple are hoping to have a second child, one they also wish to be deaf - and that desire has brought them into a sharp confrontation with Parliament. The government's Human Fertilisation and Embryology (HFE) bill, scheduled to go through the Commons this spring, will block any attempt by couples like Garfield and Lichy to use modern medical techniques to ensure their children are deaf. The bill is a jumbo-sized piece of legislation intended to pull together all aspects of reproductive science in Britain and pave the way for UK scientists to lead the field in embryology. But in trying to do so, the civil servants drafting the bill have provoked a great deal of unrest.  [...]


And, on a related note, here's an article about a 12-year-old boy getting a sex change (http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/article.aspx?cp-documentid=149775490).  :shock:
Title: Re: Blind parents who want blind children
Post by: Zhwazi on September 27, 2009, 11:15:01 PM
You're still basing your interpretation of natural rights on wishful thinking and not reason.

Parents create children.  They must be allowed to do so on their terms, or they'll simply choose not to create them!
"Governments keep law. They must be allowed to write their own laws, or they'll simply choose not to create them!"
Title: Re: Blind parents who want blind children
Post by: Andy on September 27, 2009, 11:23:32 PM
Quote
The point of rights is societal competitive advantage.

So as long as the trains run on time?
Title: Re: Blind parents who want blind children
Post by: Rillion on September 28, 2009, 09:26:48 AM
I'm interested in this topic, but don't want to discuss it with Libman.  Damn.
Title: Re: Blind parents who want blind children
Post by: Bill Brasky on September 28, 2009, 11:17:52 AM
I'm interested in this topic, but don't want to discuss it with Libman.  Damn.

That sucks, man. 
Title: Re: Blind parents who want blind children
Post by: NHArticleTen on September 28, 2009, 03:53:38 PM
I'm interested in this topic, but don't want to discuss it with Libman.  Damn.

there are others reading and posting...

.
Title: Re: Blind parents who want blind children
Post by: NHArticleTen on September 28, 2009, 03:59:34 PM
in a true free market, parents would desire that their offspring were as healthy and wholesome as possible so that they could be as competitive as was necessary to succeed and excell in whatever endeavors they might choose

there might be individuals and/or couples who desired to produce "less-than-whole" and/or handicapped and/or retarded offspring but then they might well be burdened with caring for them throughout their entire lifespans...which, after awhile, would probably cause them to kill their own offspring...

enjoy!

.
Title: Re: Blind parents who want blind children
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on September 28, 2009, 05:59:49 PM
Hey now, I knew this blind programmer once.  His mind was amazing!  He could do everything, even some Web / GUI stuff.  My jaw was on the floor...

Title: Re: Blind parents who want blind children
Post by: Zhwazi on September 29, 2009, 08:05:44 AM
in a true free market, parents would desire that their offspring were as healthy and wholesome as possible so that they could be as competitive as was necessary to succeed and excell in whatever endeavors they might choose
In a true free market, `echo $myvalues | sed 's/should/would/g' -`!

Free markets are everything everyone wants them to be until they actually happen, then a few people get disappointed. That's a failing of stupid expectations though, not one of markets :P
Title: Re: Blind parents who want blind children
Post by: fatcat on September 30, 2009, 08:58:50 PM
Cutting out your kids eyes is not comparable to cutting off  a quarter cm of a completely pointless flap of skin.

If its completely pointless why did god put it there? Did he fuck up? Is he not perfect and infallible? Huh?!

religious ZING!
Title: Re: Blind parents who want blind children
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on October 05, 2009, 02:39:15 AM
Oh, don't forget 纏足 (foot binding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot_binding)) - four billion little chinkfoots since 10th century.  :shock:

Legalize that two.
Title: Re: Blind parents who want blind children
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on October 15, 2009, 04:57:24 AM
Only 20% of people who voted in this poll (excluding myself) recognize parents' rights...  How depressing is that?

From NBC Miami -- Mom Arrested for Washing Kid's Mouth With Soap (http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local-beat/Mom-Arrested-for-Washing-Kids-Mouth-With-Soap--64112132.html) --

Quote
A Florida couple is behind bars for some old school discipline

A Palm Bay woman and her boyfriend were arrested Monday for child abuse after the couple went old school to punish their 8-year-old daughter for swearing.

They washed her mouth out with soap.

We don't know about you, but we would petition President Obama and Congress to make it mandatory for every parent to carry a bar of Irish Spring in their back pockets with all the profanity kids use today.

Police claim Adriyanna Herdener and Wilfredo Rivera went too far by placing a bar of soap in the girl's mouth and letting it stay for 10 minutes. Herdener did not intervene in the discipline.

The girl eventually vomited and Rivera took her to the local hospital, where hospital staff called police.

No one wants a child to be hurt or inhumanely punished, but parents' discipline choices in this country have come down to calling Dr. Phil or hiding the joysticks to the Wii.

Next time your kid has a potty mouth, just give them some gum.

This civilization is doomed.  :cry: