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Author Topic: Tops Bottoms and Liberty 2  (Read 7976 times)

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dalebert

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Re: Tops Bottoms and Liberty 2
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2013, 12:10:27 AM »

Also, that video is sickening--it's sexist and oppressive. Huge difference between two people of whatever gender, color, etc. expressing preferences and taking on the roles they prefer (usually just in the bedroom) and saying "this is THE role for WOMEN".

alaric89

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Re: Tops Bottoms and Liberty 2
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2013, 12:34:06 AM »

It was a voluntary womens group run by women. What the hell are you talking about? If you got your pool boy, you don't think others from outside the lifestyle would look down at him? Wouldn't a freestater hetero couple with a obviously dominating partner be judged unkindly by other freestaters? Both videos were sickening. They looked down on passive people, one just used comedy to do so. Again who sticks what in who isn't the issue. I don't know what Muslims couples do in the bedroom. I am just saying this is the world we live in and we should except that some people want to be taken care of by and be beholdant too another person.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 11:26:25 AM by alaric89 »
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dalebert

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Re: Tops Bottoms and Liberty 2
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2013, 10:37:20 AM »

alaric89

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Re: Tops Bottoms and Liberty 2
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2013, 12:32:33 PM »

Why do you think I am trolling you? I am not even disagreeing with you. You tried to gay up the thread and instead of deleting your annoying shenanigans I respectively used YOUR video to help make the point from the OP. The answering video was actually pretty hard to find. Not a lot of videos mentioning happy compliant women on Youtube oddly enough. Lots of videos about men being submissive though, both gay and straight. But simply put how can you say I am trolling you on my thread responding to your post?

Ylisium

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Re: Tops Bottoms and Liberty 2
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2013, 01:41:45 AM »

Dude, (Alaric)

I think you're way off man.

There's a huge difference in me being submissive because it's sexy and a turn on for me.

And me being submissive because I need to keep my husband happy (presumably so I don't get beat, he doesn't go out and cheat or leave me).

I'm doing the first because it's self-gratifying.

I'm doing the second as a defense against any of a variety of horrible outcomes.

My wife and I play the straight dom / sub thing regularly. She even loves things like nipple torture and spankings. But, she really enjoys it. She loves to be a dirty slut. I tell her how to dress, where to flash, how to fuck... even who to fuck. But it's only because she wants that kind of gratification. It only turns me on when I see how insanely horny the experience makes her. We're co-equal partners in our sexual adventures.

Never, NEVER does she race over to me as I collapse on the couch exhausted, to give me a blow job just because she thinks that's what she MUST do as a dutiful wife. And NEVER would I expect it. I want her to want that and to only race over to me because it turns her on. (Although, if I'm exhausted, fuck off and let me unwind with a little HALO 4).

The husbands in your video are probably misogynistic males that expect to be served, and where the mere allowance to serve them should be reward enough.

Therein lies the difference.

As to the rest of your argument (as I understand it), why would a Libertarian care if I have a sub / dom relationship? It has nothing to do with the philosophy of liberty directly. I think most mature adults will understand that, this is merely a sexual lifestyle and not an actual abusive relationship. Don't forget, oft times when men and women can't find someone in their life willing to fill this need, they'll pay a fortune for a professional to to dominate and / or humiliate them.

If someone is freaked out by this, it's because of their own personal tastes and hang-ups. Not anything to do with Liberty. Unless their too immature to recognize the difference.

« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 01:44:17 AM by alisium »
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alaric89

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Re: Tops Bottoms and Liberty 2
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2013, 05:38:08 PM »

 I appreciate the modest way you described your lifestyle. Generally doms tend to sound like braggarts.
 One person being subordinate to another is acceptable or it isn't. Whether a person wants to voluntarily submit towards their partner because it gets them off or because their invisible sky daddy said to do so can't be a factor, sorry. (Assault or kidnapping is never exceptable)
  I find it repugnant either way, but it is none of my business. A person taking the dominant role to make the one they love happy is no less a liberty lover then someone who wants every body equal. I don't even know if relationships where everybody is equal last very long. I would love to hear from a totally even and happy couple who were married for 20 years and has 3 independent grown children. I bet it doesn't exist. My argument is that many women want to be taken care of and generally libertarian men are not offering these females the security and confidence of an alpha and maybe they should.

Ylisium

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Re: Tops Bottoms and Liberty 2
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2013, 08:44:21 PM »

I think you're over analyzing.

Sub / dom relationships are a total fantasy, no matter how they are carried out. The dom is only a dom at the submissive's consent. At any moment the sub can rescind their consent and that relationship is no longer.

It's no different than in any more "typical" vanilla relationship when a woman ties up a man during sex, or a man blind-folds a woman, out of a sense of adventure. Or if a woman screams, "FUCK ME HARDER NOW MOTHERFUCKER!" The principle is the same as sub / dom relationship, only more intense in a sub / dom relationship.

The bottom isn't totally submitting. That's not possible with free will. In that respect, it's just a very intense game of role playing, where the sub is free of all care and responsibility by throwing away their need for self-control. They are titillated by the unknown more so than the idea of being controlled. They want to be pushed to their limit.

A dom has to work to keep his sub happy just as much as the sub has to work to keep the dom happy. If the the dom doesn't do a good job in their role, they are kicked to the curb.

My wife once dated a timid girl. One that told her she'd push her to her extremes in an endless chain of emails. But, in reality, she wasn't up to the task. My wife was polite about it, but she ended the relationship because she wasn't getting what she wanted.

There is no "absolute" submission. It's certainly not submission in the way that women had to in the 1920's to their husbands. Knowing your sexuality and picking the right person to push your buttons, is a very empowering act. The sub is choosing to be led around. The sub is choosing to be exposed. The sub is choosing to be pushed to their extreme. There's no timidity in that act. It's bold and very liberating.

The irony is I, as the dom, serve at the pleasure of the sub.

Now about your comments about an alpha male.

What in the great googly heck says that alpha personalities and liberty loving are mutually exclusive? Or am I interpreting what you're saying incorrectly?

Alpha =/= control freak.

There are plenty of people of each and every personality type who are liberty lovers. My personality type is determined by me genetic make-up, my environment and my nurturing. This does not prevent someone from discovering the ideas of liberty and embracing them. This also does not mean that if you're an alpha, you must try to change who you are to "fit in" to the liberty lifestyle / movement. That would be decidedly opposed to the philosophy.

Embrace who you are. That includes both your positive attributes and your flaws. Use both. What determines whether or not you're a true liberty lover is how you treat others.

Methinks you're trying to, too neatly box up and package what liberty loving means, in ways that are ill-fitting and unnatural.


« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 08:49:16 PM by alisium »
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alaric89

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Re: Tops Bottoms and Liberty 2
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2013, 03:03:46 AM »

 If your going to describe your sex life can you be a bit more graphic and silly like a bad Penthouse letter? "My submissive wife's pussy was wet in anticipation as she began to suck my everready 7 inches of glory. I was playing tetris so I said 'Bitch please, let me finish the leval.'" or something to that effect. More amusing that way.
 So what are we arguing here? Plenty of happy couples lived in the old days when one person was clearly the head of the household. The head wasn't nessessarily violent. Maybe this dynamic is generally how humans are. I am not going to buy into some BS that says only gays should get to have a sub dom dynamic because they are both the same sex. Or that kinks should get a pass because the dom has a screw loose and can only get it up for submissive people. Everybody gets a voluntary relationship or nobody does.

Ylisium

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Re: Tops Bottoms and Liberty 2
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2013, 02:32:32 PM »

Why does anyone need a pass from you or anyone?

That's what I am not understanding. If people are happily consensual, why do they need to justify themselves to you?

I was trying to have an open and frank conversation with you, so, no I am not going to be graphic for graphic's sake.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 02:37:26 PM by alisium »
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alaric89

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Re: Tops Bottoms and Liberty 2
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2013, 03:16:42 PM »

I am not judging you, dude. Did I misunderstand you? I thought you didn't like old style head of the household relationships. I also thought you were criticising people who live in religiously motivated top bottom deals. That is what I mean, I can't figure out what we are discussing.

Ylisium

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Re: Tops Bottoms and Liberty 2
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2013, 05:44:56 PM »

Quote
Or that kinks should get a pass because the dom has a screw loose and can only get it up for submissive people. Everybody gets a voluntary relationship or nobody does. 

This, I'm not understanding.

I think there is a stark difference between "Hey, you need to be a whore for your husband because if you're not, then you deserve what you get" and "I am the head of the household, but I lean on my wife for her strength and support and wisdom to help me do my job as a loving father, dad and leader. She may defer to me, but she is my foundation and without her support, I crumble." The latter sounds more like a consensual institution, the former more like coercion. That former is what I object to.

There's also a stark difference between head of household, and who's in charge in the bedroom. One is the way I run my life, the other is the way I like to fuck. Apples and oranges.

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Ylisium

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Re: Tops Bottoms and Liberty 2
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2013, 05:50:41 PM »

Quote
Whether a person wants to voluntarily submit towards their partner because it gets them off or because their invisible sky daddy said to do so can't be a factor, sorry.

I think I am starting to get... maybe, where you're coming from.

The question you should ask is, is it coercion. If' I am only doing something because I was told to or because I'm afraid to suffer in hell, that's not voluntary... I was coerced into that.

If I submit because it gets me off or because I enjoy my life wherein my husband / wife takes the leadership role, then no one should have an issue with it and I don't know why you'd find it repugnant. Again, it's not total submission. You're only submitting because you will it. As long as you can pull the plug on that dynamic anytime you want (w/o fear of going to hell or getting beaten, ostracized or honor killed) you're still free. You just found something that works for you.
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alaric89

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Re: Tops Bottoms and Liberty 2
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2013, 04:12:56 AM »

 You make a good argument the the threats of everlasting hell could be percieved as coursion. Unfortunately many would say people who are compelled to want to dominate or be submissive are also that way because of some experience from childhood. Notice, at least on this thread,  I have not judged any lifestyle. Maybe kink would still exist and maybe some people would find religian with more compliant status on the one sex if kids had never seen a bully or adult who demanded blind authority. I doubt it though.
 I am saying for whatever reason you are in a happy relationship because you are not looking for some libertarian ideal relationship. Domination is a factor and you embraced it. Religian is sometimes a factor they embraced it. Some gay men prefere to be the "girl", a smart gay man embraces that. I assume a women who wants to sleep with another woman who wants to be the "girl" should try and be a bull dyke.
 As the world is, libertarian men should adjust to what real women want, a strong man who will lead them. I think many libertarian men make the mistake of hoping for some sort of libertarian woman who will live in a equal partenership where she earns and pays as much as he does, and the woman doesn't expect free gifts on mothers day etc.  THESE WOMEN ARE FEW AND FAR BETWEEN. Generally women want a strong man they can depend on. I am not judging anyone except libertarian boys bitching about a lack of women who want to live in a roomate with benifites relationship and libertarian girls bitching about women acting like women.
 All the comments on lifestyle are sort of a combination of my mea culpa and examples of people living in the real world. I find it a bit odd how people who live in compliant relationships are very willing to judge each other though.

alaric89

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Re: Tops Bottoms and Liberty 2
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2013, 11:56:39 AM »

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