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Author Topic: FTL is becoming anti-science  (Read 19501 times)

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AL the Inconspicuous

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Re: FTL is becoming anti-science
« Reply #60 on: December 13, 2009, 03:36:48 AM »

CaptMarvel1966 -

In your last posts you seem to have missed the substance of our argument.  I am not denying that there are some crackpots out there making inaccurate claims (and defenders of government force love to nitpick and popularize the craziest ones), I am arguing for people's Natural Right to decide what is being put into their (and their children's) bodies - no matter what their reasoning is based on.  The free market in vaccines would lead to a myriad of alternatives: different vaccination methods, schedules, dozes, preservatives, quality assurance / transparency techniques, and so on.  The free market is also able to leverage the expertise of a polycentric mesh of competing medical certification authorities, which are far less susceptible to corruption and groupthink, and it can use non-violent pressure from concerned market entities (private school enrollment criteria, homeowners' association charters, insurance policies, and so on) to entice people to do their part for whatever "herd immunity" benefits various immunization choices bring.

Only when individuals have the freedom to choose for themselves can rational evolution of ideas take place.  Stifling this freedom gives way too much power to the power-hungry elite, and can only lead to disaster in the long term.
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CaptMarvel1966

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Re: FTL is becoming anti-science
« Reply #61 on: December 13, 2009, 03:58:08 AM »

I know I did stray on topic but during the show the guys (especially Wayne) seem to focus on the chemicals in vaccines at one time or another; even dismissing their explanations. I agree totally with the concept of Free choice as well as Free Market Regulation ie: (Free Market Certification) ; but also making those choices with the correct information & doing some research.  A lot of the folks who are anti vaccine are either afraid of the chemicals scary names or are mis-informed of their composition or want something to blame Autism on.  I am new to posting on a BBS.

Just trying to be helpful... :D
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 04:27:07 AM by CaptMarvel1966 »
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AL the Inconspicuous

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Re: FTL is becoming anti-science
« Reply #62 on: December 13, 2009, 04:23:21 AM »

Welcome to the BBS.  Topic drift is a common occurrence here (and that's probably an understatement).

My bad for coming off as unfriendly.  Trying to counteract the neo-Luddite AGW spin all over the Internets is the short path to insanity.   :lol:

One other minor nitpick: "Free Market Regulation" sounds like an oxymoron.  "Free Market Certification" might be a better phrase to use.
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fatcat

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Re: FTL is becoming anti-science
« Reply #63 on: December 13, 2009, 11:40:50 AM »

  Michael Shermer is a good example of a skeptical, science-minded libertarian type person.  Maybe we should all read his book The Mind of the Market and call the show about it.   :)

Shermer ftw
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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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libertylover

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Re: FTL is becoming anti-science
« Reply #65 on: December 13, 2009, 03:32:05 PM »

CaptMarvel1966 -

In your last posts you seem to have missed the substance of our argument.  I am not denying that there are some crackpots out there making inaccurate claims (and defenders of government force love to nitpick and popularize the craziest ones), I am arguing for people's Natural Right to decide what is being put into their (and their children's) bodies - no matter what their reasoning is based on.  The free market in vaccines would lead to a myriad of alternatives: different vaccination methods, schedules, dozes, preservatives, quality assurance / transparency techniques, and so on.  The free market is also able to leverage the expertise of a polycentric mesh of competing medical certification authorities, which are far less susceptible to corruption and groupthink, and it can use non-violent pressure from concerned market entities (private school enrollment criteria, homeowners' association charters, insurance policies, and so on) to entice people to do their part for whatever "herd immunity" benefits various immunization choices bring.

Only when individuals have the freedom to choose for themselves can rational evolution of ideas take place.  Stifling this freedom gives way too much power to the power-hungry elite, and can only lead to disaster in the long term.


This 110%
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libertylover

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Re: FTL is becoming anti-science
« Reply #66 on: December 13, 2009, 03:46:05 PM »

Before you start using Quackwatch as some sort of legitimate source you might want to know who is behind it.

Failed MD Stephen Barrett

What kind of man would drop out of the medical profession and dedicate his life to STOPPING advancement in the health sciences?
      

Opinion by Consumer Advocate Tim Bolen

Location of Stephen Barrett's "quackwatch.com" - the basement of his home at 2421 West Greenleaf Street, Allentown, PA 18104

"Quackbusting" - is a Profitable Business...

Frankly, "quackbusting" is a profitable industry, and Stephen Barrett plays it to the hilt.

In a Canadian lawsuit (see below) Barrett admitted to the following:

"The sole purpose of the activities of Barrett & Baratz are to discredit and cause damage and harm to health care practitioners, businesses that make alternative health therapies or products available, and advocates of non-allopathic therapies and health freedom."

................................................

Stephen Barrett -  Professional Crackpot...

The Internet needs health information it can trust. Stephen Barrett doesn't provide it...

Barrett is one of those people whose ambitions and opinions of himself  far exceeds his abilities.  Without ANY qualifications he has set himself up as an expert in just about everything having to do with health care - and more.

And this from a man who is a professional failure.

Records show that Barrett never achieved any success in the medical profession.  His claim to being a "retired Psychiatrist" is laughable.  He is, in fact, a "failed Psychiatrist," and a "failed MD."

The Psychiatric profession rejected Barrett years ago,  for Barrett could NOT pass the examinations necessary to become "Board Certified."  Which, is no doubt why Barrett was, throughout his career, relegated to lower level "part time" positions.

Barrett, we know, was forced to give up his medical license in Pennsylvania in 1993 when his "part-time" employment at the State Mental Hospital was terminated, and he had so few (nine) private patients during his last five years of practice, that he couldn't afford the Malpractice Insurance premiums Pennsylvania requires.

In a job market in the United States, where there is a "doctor shortage," Stephen Barrett, after his termination by the State mental Hospital, couldn't find employment.  He was in his mid-50s at the time.  He should have been at the top of his craft - yet, apparently, he couldn't find work.

It is obvious, that, after one humiliation after another, in 1993 Barrett simply gave up his medical aspirations,  turned in his MD license, and retreated, in bitterness and frustration, to his basement.

It was in that basement, where Barrett took up "quackbusting" - which, in reality, means that Barrett attacks "cutting-edge" health professionals and paradigms - those that ARE achieving success in their segment of health care.

And there, in "quackbusting" is where Barrett finally found the attention and  recognition he seems to crave - for, a while, that is, until three California Judges, in a PUBLISHED Appeals Court decision, took a HARD look at Barrett's activities, and declared him "biased, and unworthy of credibility."

Bitterness against successful  health professionals is Barrett's hallmark.  To him they're all "quacks."  In this, his essays are repetitive and pedestrian. 

MORE INFO on your Guru
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CaptMarvel1966

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Re: FTL is becoming anti-science
« Reply #67 on: December 13, 2009, 04:49:04 PM »

Before you start using Quackwatch as some sort of legitimate source you might want to know who is behind it.

Failed MD Stephen Barrett

What kind of man would drop out of the medical profession and dedicate his life to STOPPING advancement in the health sciences?
      

Opinion by Consumer Advocate Tim Bolen

Location of Stephen Barrett's "quackwatch.com" - the basement of his home at 2421 West Greenleaf Street, Allentown, PA 18104

"Quackbusting" - is a Profitable Business...[/i][/color]

Okay so whats wrong with running a business first off...especially if you are trying to assist people. Besides when did I get charged for visiting quackwatch or reading it?

I'm a bit more inclined to listen to someone openly endorsed by like James Randi.

Exposing out and out quackery is not hindering medical science, unless you consider frauds like Kevin Trudeau advanced medical science ...if you look at a number of the articles on quackwatch they are from more reputable sources.

Also here's the response to Tim Bolen; if Barret had something to hide he's not doing a great job.

http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/bolen.html
http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/fonorowsuit.html






Frankly, "quackbusting" is a profitable industry, and Stephen Barrett plays it to the hilt.

In a Canadian lawsuit (see below) Barrett admitted to the following:

"The sole purpose of the activities of Barrett & Baratz are to discredit and cause damage and harm to health care practitioners, businesses that make alternative health therapies or products available, and advocates of non-allopathic therapies and health freedom."

................................................

Stephen Barrett -  Professional Crackpot...

The Internet needs health information it can trust. Stephen Barrett doesn't provide it...

Barrett is one of those people whose ambitions and opinions of himself  far exceeds his abilities.  Without ANY qualifications he has set himself up as an expert in just about everything having to do with health care - and more.

And this from a man who is a professional failure.

Records show that Barrett never achieved any success in the medical profession.  His claim to being a "retired Psychiatrist" is laughable.  He is, in fact, a "failed Psychiatrist," and a "failed MD."

The Psychiatric profession rejected Barrett years ago,  for Barrett could NOT pass the examinations necessary to become "Board Certified."  Which, is no doubt why Barrett was, throughout his career, relegated to lower level "part time" positions.

Barrett, we know, was forced to give up his medical license in Pennsylvania in 1993 when his "part-time" employment at the State Mental Hospital was terminated, and he had so few (nine) private patients during his last five years of practice, that he couldn't afford the Malpractice Insurance premiums Pennsylvania requires.

In a job market in the United States, where there is a "doctor shortage," Stephen Barrett, after his termination by the State mental Hospital, couldn't find employment.  He was in his mid-50s at the time.  He should have been at the top of his craft - yet, apparently, he couldn't find work.

It is obvious, that, after one humiliation after another, in 1993 Barrett simply gave up his medical aspirations,  turned in his MD license, and retreated, in bitterness and frustration, to his basement.

It was in that basement, where Barrett took up "quackbusting" - which, in reality, means that Barrett attacks "cutting-edge" health professionals and paradigms - those that ARE achieving success in their segment of health care.

And there, in "quackbusting" is where Barrett finally found the attention and  recognition he seems to crave - for, a while, that is, until three California Judges, in a PUBLISHED Appeals Court decision, took a HARD look at Barrett's activities, and declared him "biased, and unworthy of credibility."

Bitterness against successful  health professionals is Barrett's hallmark.  To him they're all "quacks."  In this, his essays are repetitive and pedestrian. 

MORE INFO on your Guru
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libertylover

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Re: FTL is becoming anti-science
« Reply #68 on: December 13, 2009, 08:01:14 PM »

@CaptMarvel1966

Anyone can file a lawsuit if he had won the suit two things would have happened.  One there would be a cess and desist order issued and the website would have been removed.  Also your Guru would be crowing about his legal win and posting the judgment not just the fact that he filed a lawsuit.   Considering the lawsuit was filed in 2001 both of those should have been completed by now. 

All you have to do it look up whois to find out that the address information on your Guru is correct.  If he is not a failed MD, why not pay the simply licensing fee as he has claimed he can do?  He hasn't done so has he?   Why bother with a long boring diatribe and not just post a copy of a current MD license?

I am not going to defend every alternative medical practice many are way out there and I will agree are total bunk.  But I am also not going to point out every unnecessary medical procedure and drug kickback which AMA doctors get either.   Or every case where the AMA or big pharma lobbies for market place protectionism, like their attempt to make vitamins a prescription only item.  Just a very current one.  (FDA declared vitamin B6 as a drug , not to be sold over the counter)   For me at least it isn't as black and white as people like Barret try to push off on people. 

Do you realize that Folic Acid was recommended by alternative health practitioners for decades before the FDA acknowledged it's benefits for pregnant women in reducing the risk of spina bifida and other birth defects.   Discovered in 1930's, FDA recommended 1992, way to go cutting edge modern medicine it only took you almost a half century to recommend something that nutritionist and other alternative medicine people had known and recommended decades earlier.   Yet the FDA will approve a vaccine with only 6 weeks of testing and virtually none of those tests are double blind. 


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gibson042

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Re: FTL is becoming anti-science
« Reply #69 on: December 16, 2009, 10:04:35 AM »

So, I figured it out while listening to last night's podcast, as Sam was redirecting the conversation from magic remote burn healing to magic Edgar Cayce.  I'm sure others have already made this observation, but their (Sam, Ian, et al.) problem—or rather, our problem with them—seems to stem from their lacking a standard of evidence.  Instead, the amount of scrutiny claims get seems to be inversely proportional to how much these people want them to be true!  They even implicitly acknowledge this on occasion, with statements like "the human body can do amazing things..."

Ian recently talked about his "skeptical side" with respect to one of these topics, but I contend that he doesn't have one.  Skepticism requires a standard of evidence, and for that to mean anything, exceptional claims must have a harder time meeting it than mundane ones.  Ian and other overly credulous fellows can be critical, but criticism uninformed by reason is not skeptical.
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Scott in Winnipeg

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Re: FTL is becoming anti-science
« Reply #70 on: December 16, 2009, 12:10:39 PM »

I think my next call is going to be about "magic: and what I meant last night when I said that remoate healing was "magic and magic isnt real", in which Ian (or maybe Mark) went on to say that the body healing itself and placebos are magical. Well, perhaps that is true, but it's not magic.
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Cognitive Dissident

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Re: FTL is becoming anti-science
« Reply #71 on: December 16, 2009, 01:26:36 PM »

WRT Law of Attraction, I don't understand how they can attack religion and embrace what is essentially...religion.

BTW, being a pantheist, in Ian's interpretation, is basically equivalent to being atheist.  Pantheism is really the collectivist form, where if everything is god, then really nothing is god and god doesn't exist in any real way (it's the tragedy of the commons with god in place of property.)  At most, "magic" exists (LOA), which to me is a crock.
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libertylover

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Re: FTL is becoming anti-science
« Reply #72 on: December 16, 2009, 02:36:45 PM »

So, I figured it out while listening to last night's podcast, as Sam was redirecting the conversation from magic remote burn healing to magic Edgar Cayce.  I'm sure others have already made this observation, but their (Sam, Ian, et al.) problem—or rather, our problem with them—seems to stem from their lacking a standard of evidence.  Instead, the amount of scrutiny claims get seems to be inversely proportional to how much these people want them to be true!  They even implicitly acknowledge this on occasion, with statements like "the human body can do amazing things..."
Not once did any of them say they believed that remote healing worked beyond a placebo effect.  How can you demand or obtain evidence of remote healing really working or not working on a radio show to begin with?   Most likely it is the placebo effect that results in any improvement for these patients.  The placebo effect has been scientifically studied.  "Belief is powerful medicine, even if the treatment itself is a sham. New research shows placebos can also benefit patients who do not have faith in them." Placebo Effect: A Cure in the Mind So it has been proven scientifically that the mind can in many cases actually heal the body or do seemingly amazing things.
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Rillion

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Re: FTL is becoming anti-science
« Reply #73 on: December 16, 2009, 04:30:48 PM »

The placebo effect has been scientifically studied.  "Belief is powerful medicine, even if the treatment itself is a sham. New research shows placebos can also benefit patients who do not have faith in them." Placebo Effect: A Cure in the Mind So it has been proven scientifically that the mind can in many cases actually heal the body or do seemingly amazing things.

I don't think it was ever in doubt that the mind can do amazing things.  Being dumb enough to feel healed by something that has no actual medical benefit, however, is not something I would count among them. 
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gibson042

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Re: FTL is becoming anti-science
« Reply #74 on: December 16, 2009, 04:50:02 PM »

Not once did any of them say they believed that remote healing worked beyond a placebo effect.

I didn't claim otherwise.

Quote
How can you demand or obtain evidence of remote healing really working or not working on a radio show to begin with?

The hosts' comments on vaccine safety and global warming are remarkably different from their comments on three-in-one birds and pyrokinesis.  Even if you dispute the former, you can at least acknowledge their vastly more abundant evidence and prima facie plausibility.

Quote
So it has been proven scientifically that the mind can in many cases actually heal the body or do seemingly amazing things.

Leaving aside your misunderstanding that anything can be "proved" scientifically, you're overstating.  It has been suggested that "high levels of placebo effect... are the result of flawed research methodology".  Even in better studies, its beneficial effect decreases with larger sample sizes (often indicative of non-phenomena).  At any rate, the true placebo effect is weak if real, and mostly subjective.  And also not magic.
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