Is Stefan Molyneux a cult leader?

[jimmed]

Quote from another forum:

http://liberatingminds.forumotion.com/freedomainradio-f26/rodzilla-s-family-and-his-defooing-t324.htm

"And just a quick aside. Let's run through this cult thing again. We have an organization with a doctrinaire leader who brooks no dissent or criticism; it requires a tithe, and the more one pays the more access one gets to the leader; it now requires a uniform (previously, just a certain style of dress was recommended) and the purchase and distribution of materials (recruitment, essentially); it's most crucial tenets require ending contact with one's family and confessional participation in a conversation that deconstructs one's history in order to re-frame one's relationship with their family as one of victim and oppressor. It is as if all parents are, to Stef's mind, evil scheming villians, akin to Snidley Whiplash, and older siblings are their snickering enablers, ala Muttley. All his listeners are innocent little doe-eyed angels who require his knightly services (at the low, low price of ceaseless adoration and abject fealty) to rescue their "true selves" from oblivion. It's like a cartoon, and really lacks the depth and subtlety he claims for his his analysis."

[Barterer]

Whatever.  "Liberatingminds" comes off as a bunch of ankle-biting snivelers who never bothered to listen to the many podcasts Stefan has done outlining the differences between what he is doing, and the real "cults" of family, statism, and religion.. idealized abstractions that box people into shitty relationships and get them to do shitty things. If discarding all that crap and thinking in terms of individuals (and individual human action) is a cult, sign me up.

[Dalebert]

It's like a cartoon...

Hey, why you rippin' on cartoons?

[Bill Brasky]

I don't think I'd call him a cult leader.  However, I think many of the people who are into his bullshit have elevated him to that position because they are followers. 

Big warning bells go off in my head when people say "Stefan" as if they're on a first name basis with him.  Stefan says!  Stefan thinks! 

Stefans a fuckin crackpot, folks.  His method reminds me of Open Mic Night and the audience is filled with bobblehead dolls. 

[Osborne]

Well, for starters, every one of those accusations are incorrect.

a) Molyneux debates people every day. Bannination only occurs when individuals are abusive toward others on the board without apology.
b) There is no tithe required. The word "tithe" is defined as a tenth of something, in this context probably one's income. He has never asked for nor probably received any such donation.
c) I know people who donate the most to FDR, and they do not have more access than anyone on the board.
d) There are promotional materials that people are encouraged to display and wear, but are not required. Is FTL a cult for selling t-shirts?
e) No one is required to end relationships with family, only encouraged to end relationships with abusive individuals.

What makes FDR great is its utter simplicity and accessibility for individuals at any intellectual level. If you accept logic and the scientific method, then you can understand, debate, and contribute to the arguments.

Jay, it looks like we have the same cat.

[Dylboz]

Whatever.  "Liberatingminds" comes off as a bunch of ankle-biting snivelers who never bothered to listen to the many podcasts Stefan has done outlining the differences between what he is doing, and the real "cults" of family, statism, and religion.. idealized abstractions that box people into shitty relationships and get them to do shitty things. If discarding all that crap and thinking in terms of individuals (and individual human action) is a cult, sign me up.

I have listened to over a thousand of them, and there is a definite trajectory, as his facility and confidence in the medium built, so did his following. As his following increased, so did his sense of the absolute accuracy and sufficiency of his analysis. Now, while he is right about a great deal of things, and has offered important criticisms of many of societies most sacred institutions, he is as shrill and smug as he could possibly be, and like the proverbial man with a hammer in his hand, he hits everything over the head with it as if it were a nail. Every person who was interested in debate, or a refinement of ideas, maybe a real conversation, (not Stef's very one-sided "conversation"), is gone, and a gang of very young and mostly lonely male sycophants gather to parrot his ideas, heap praise upon him, attack those who wander into the site with critical questions or any lingering affections for their family, and try to recruit others into their movement. Maybe it's not exactly a cult, since they don't have an ashram, but it is an unhealthy, insular and dependent relationship from which Stefan benefits financially. It is by no means "anarchistic" or representative of a free society. It is a virtual fiefdom, with Stef as lord of the manor. He makes no bones about that, with constant references to his "property right" in the site and his employment of the ban stick.

Also, I don't think that man has any idea what it is actually like to parent. Children are not little angels of innocence. I only hope he has a little brat of his own to shatter his illusions about children and the nature of childhood.

[Andy]

t's most crucial tenets require ending contact with one's family .

I did wonder about this when he was on FTL, I didn't know about the other stuff.

[jimmed]

It is a virtual fiefdom

Well, Anarchy is all about "little kingdoms", so...

[Barterer]

What makes FDR great is its utter simplicity and accessibility for individuals at any intellectual level. If you accept logic and the scientific method, then you can understand, debate, and contribute to the arguments.

Right.  The problem with some listeners occurs not from applying the same scientific method that Stefan (here let me tap out the  awkward name M-o-l-y-n-e-u-x, that means I'm not making a false argument from authority) uses, but when they exaggerate their own past abuse to the point they feel they should just follow in his footsteps.
Correct methods + personal experience >> correct action for you.
Correct methods + someone else's experience >> culty bullshit action.

[Bill Brasky]

It's like a cartoon, and really lacks the depth and subtlety he claims for his analysis.

qft

[Barterer]

Also, I don't think that man has any idea what it is actually like to parent. Children are not little angels of innocence. I only hope he has a little brat of his own to shatter his illusions about children and the nature of childhood.

I disagree with the first part of your post, but will give you some benefit of the doubt, since you've listened to way more podcasts than I have.

It will be interesting for me, as a new father and past victim of (milder) abuse, to apply some of these principles in hopes of building more positive family relationships, and of course not ending up old and abandoned.  In light of the ultimate damage to relationships childhood abuse causes (which Stefan repeatedly highlights) I'll definitely be kinder to my daughter than I was treated as a child.

About the money/fiefdom thing.. meh.. just as with FTL, I donate exactly what the stuff is worth to me, and feel good about it.

[Admiral Naismith]

I don't think I'd call him a cult leader.  However, I think many of the people who are into his bullshit have elevated him to that position because they are followers. 

Big warning bells go off in my head when people say "Stefan" as if they're on a first name basis with him.  Stefan says!  Stefan thinks! 

Stefans a fuckin crackpot, folks.  His method reminds me of Open Mic Night and the audience is filled with bobblehead dolls. 

Yup.

[Dylboz]

Well, for starters, every one of those accusations are incorrect.

a) Molyneux debates people every day. Bannination only occurs when individuals are abusive toward others on the board without apology.

No, banning occurs after Mr. Molynuex and his minions get abusive, and their target gets defensive. That is then used as evidence of their inappropriate behavior, and no one ever looks at what Stefan or Greg has said negatively. Or when one of them is caught in a lie or contradiction and wont cop to it.

b) There is no tithe required. The word "tithe" is defined as a tenth of something, in this context probably one's income. He has never asked for nor probably received any such donation.

No, he says you should pay 50 cents per podcast listen. He offers a subscription that is based on this amount. That's a regular deduction of one's income.

c) I know people who donate the most to FDR, and they do not have more access than anyone on the board.

What? HE promotes that! Gold level plus, and all that. The "Philosopher Kings" have access to gossip about other board members he wont disseminate to the rank and file. It's called "Premium Content."

d) There are promotional materials that people are encouraged to display and wear, but are not required. Is FTL a cult for selling t-shirts?

Well, he produced an angry rant about how cowardly the FDR members all were for complaining about the clothing's quality and not doing their duty to FDR by buying and wearing them. HE created a posiive, T-shirt buying obligation out of thin air.

e) No one is required to end relationships with family, only encouraged to end relationships with abusive individuals.

That is the lie. The truth, if you care to look, is that deFOOing is necessary to gain access to the Molynuex inner circle, and to have any ideas you might proffer taken seriously. Until you do that, there will always be the criticism, "but you still associate with corrupt people in the form of your family." Mr. Molynuex doesn't believe that anyone doesn't have corrupt parents, and he is rude, dismissive and accusatory toward anyone who cliams theirs are not, or who makes any attempt to defend or explain or rationalize behavior they may already have come to terms with. Whatever peace they may have made with their past, they are encouraged to dig it up and confront their parents with it, in order to shame the parents into therapy and admissions of guilt, or to sever the relationship forever. They are encouraged to view this relationship as not only one of victim and oppressor, but the foundational experience of their lives, the one that has crippled their "true self" from emerging and reaching it's full potential, and to place all blame and responsibility squarely at their parents feet. This is, in a word, unhealthy.

What makes FDR great is its utter simplicity and accessibility for individuals at any intellectual level. If you accept logic and the scientific method, then you can understand, debate, and contribute to the arguments.

This could be said only if it stuck to it's critical analysis of the state and even the family, and perhaps the parts of UPB that are worthy of pursuit, but not when it comes to allowing Stefan and FDR to micro-manage your daily life, or pass blanket judgments (with almost zero knowledge, nearly all of it hearsay) on people with whom you've had relationships your entire life. Stefan works hard in his conversations to undermine people's own judgement and supplant his own when he speaks to them about their parents. To me it seems, he's really only talking about his own, and his seething anger at them. He acts it out again and again by encouraging these "breaks" and he takes great vicarious pleasure in the tales of agony and despair it causes for these unwitting parents and siblings, some of whom have sadly come to the FDR boards looking for understanding. There, they are treated with utter contempt, and a very thinly veiled recapitulation of Molynuex's own rage at his parents. He has isolated his wife from her family as well, and they laughed with glee when describing Christina's mother's desperate banging on their door. That's nothing but petty childishness, like a trick played by a spoiled kid who didn't get their way.

He is no great shakes, this man. He's a megalomaniac who is feeding his ego and his wallet at the expense of sad, lonely teenagers and twenty-somethings who have mostly typical issues with their families. While there are some examples of genuine abuse and terrible parental behavior, they are the well exploited exception to the rather mundane rule. Much like Scientology, he treats the celebrity endorsers and radio interviewers with the kind of kid-gloves he reserves for those who offer him advantage. He does not interact with Mark and Ian or other hosts with anywhere near the same demeanor as a caller on his Sunday show, or a critic of his ideas. The experience for the rank and file supporter or curious wayward internet visitor is quite different. Kind of like that leaked scientology video not meant for wider consumption that made Tom Cruise look like a loon, delving into the depths of their forum and the podcasts reveals the nature of things in a way that casual listening and the YouTube videos do not.

Lastly, you say you can contribute? Not so. He brooks no dissent, though he'll kindly through in a "does that help " after he tells you, in so many words, to fuck off. What good is it to say "I'm willing to be corrected," when experience belies it? No, all you can contribute to his arguments is cash.

[jimmed]

You didn't refute the part about the cat! My cat looks almost nothing like MengerFan's! Except for the excess of fur.

[Osborne]

Well, for starters, every one of those accusations are incorrect.

a) Molyneux debates people every day. Bannination only occurs when individuals are abusive toward others on the board without apology.

No, banning occurs after Mr. Molynuex and his minions get abusive, and their target gets defensive. That is then used as evidence of their inappropriate behavior, and no one ever looks at what Stefan or Greg has said negatively. Or when one of them is caught in a lie or contradiction and wont cop to it.

Since I cannot provide evidence that something did not occur, it will remain for you to provide evidence that it did. Then we can discuss whether your assessment is accurate.

b) There is no tithe required. The word "tithe" is defined as a tenth of something, in this context probably one's income. He has never asked for nor probably received any such donation.

No, he says you should pay 50 cents per podcast listen. He offers a subscription that is based on this amount. That's a regular deduction of one's income.

So he asks for payment for goods. How is that a tithe? When you buy a cheeseburger at Wendy's do you call it a tithe?

c) I know people who donate the most to FDR, and they do not have more access than anyone on the board.

What? HE promotes that! Gold level plus, and all that. The "Philosopher Kings" have access to gossip about other board members he wont disseminate to the rank and file. It's called "Premium Content."

Right. So you get additional goods for payment. That does not equate to more access to the man himself as was indicated in the initial thread post.

d) There are promotional materials that people are encouraged to display and wear, but are not required. Is FTL a cult for selling t-shirts?

Well, he produced an angry rant about how cowardly the FDR members all were for complaining about the clothing's quality and not doing their duty to FDR by buying and wearing them. HE created a posiive, T-shirt buying obligation out of thin air.

That podcast was not chastisement for not buying goods. It was chastisement to the individuals who were clamoring for goods to be be made available for purchase and did not buy them when they were made available. The issue was not the purchase of goods, but the lack of integrity on the part of a few individuals.

e) No one is required to end relationships with family, only encouraged to end relationships with abusive individuals.

That is the lie. The truth, if you care to look, is that deFOOing is necessary to gain access to the Molynuex inner circle, and to have any ideas you might proffer taken seriously. Until you do that, there will always be the criticism, "but you still associate with corrupt people in the form of your family." Mr. Molynuex doesn't believe that anyone doesn't have corrupt parents, and he is rude, dismissive and accusatory toward anyone who cliams theirs are not, or who makes any attempt to defend or explain or rationalize behavior they may already have come to terms with. Whatever peace they may have made with their past, they are encouraged to dig it up and confront their parents with it, in order to shame the parents into therapy and admissions of guilt, or to sever the relationship forever. They are encouraged to view this relationship as not only one of victim and oppressor, but the foundational experience of their lives, the one that has crippled their "true self" from emerging and reaching it's full potential, and to place all blame and responsibility squarely at their parents feet. This is, in a word, unhealthy.

Is it healthy to deny the history of your formative years? That does not make much sense to me.

I have never received any grief from the FDR people about my family. Granted, I actually discuss ethics and my history on a regular basis with my family.

What makes FDR great is its utter simplicity and accessibility for individuals at any intellectual level. If you accept logic and the scientific method, then you can understand, debate, and contribute to the arguments.

This could be said only if it stuck to it's critical analysis of the state and even the family, and perhaps the parts of UPB that are worthy of pursuit, but not when it comes to allowing Stefan and FDR to micro-manage your daily life, or pass blanket judgments (with almost zero knowledge, nearly all of it hearsay) on people with whom you've had relationships your entire life. Stefan works hard in his conversations to undermine people's own judgement and supplant his own when he speaks to them about their parents. To me it seems, he's really only talking about his own, and his seething anger at them. He acts it out again and again by encouraging these "breaks" and he takes great vicarious pleasure in the tales of agony and despair it causes for these unwitting parents and siblings, some of whom have sadly come to the FDR boards looking for understanding. There, they are treated with utter contempt, and a very thinly veiled recapitulation of Molynuex's own rage at his parents. He has isolated his wife from her family as well, and they laughed with glee when describing Christina's mother's desperate banging on their door. That's nothing but petty childishness, like a trick played by a spoiled kid who didn't get their way.

He is no great shakes, this man. He's a megalomaniac who is feeding his ego and his wallet at the expense of sad, lonely teenagers and twenty-somethings who have mostly typical issues with their families. While there are some examples of genuine abuse and terrible parental behavior, they are the well exploited exception to the rather mundane rule. Much like Scientology, he treats the celebrity endorsers and radio interviewers with the kind of kid-gloves he reserves for those who offer him advantage. He does not interact with Mark and Ian or other hosts with anywhere near the same demeanor as a caller on his Sunday show, or a critic of his ideas. The experience for the rank and file supporter or curious wayward internet visitor is quite different. Kind of like that leaked scientology video not meant for wider consumption that made Tom Cruise look like a loon, delving into the depths of their forum and the podcasts reveals the nature of things in a way that casual listening and the YouTube videos do not.

Lastly, you say you can contribute? Not so. He brooks no dissent, though he'll kindly through in a "does that help " after he tells you, in so many words, to fuck off. What good is it to say "I'm willing to be corrected," when experience belies it? No, all you can contribute to his arguments is cash.

Well, there are certainly a number of accusations there with no evidence. If you would like to reference examples for discussion, that may be helpful.