Secession

[FreeJohn]

I'm relatively new to the Liberty minded thinking, and I can't think of a solution to this. From my understanding, I think it's safe to claim most Liberty people are non-violent types. I have also come to the obvious conclusion that the United States of America like initiate wars, invade foreign countries, and keep armed men on bases in every country. If, for example, we hypothetically get New Hampshire to secede peacefully, how is a war avoided after secession? The way I see it, the USA will more than likely; leave US troops in the newly created Liberty nation or initiate a war on said new nation. Liberty minded folks won't appreciate the US having troops in their new nation, and, I imagine, won't like the US declaring war on the newly created nation. How do you go about seceding from a tyrannical, militant nation peacefully?

[SnuggleyJeff]

This is a very good question.

I personally think that there is no way secession would be allowed without a fight.  I hope that I am wrong about this, and that I live to find out, but I just can't see the Federal Govt saying, "It's ok with us if you want to leave the union".

[FreeJohn]

Exactly. With that in mind, is a peaceful secession the best way to go about doing it? I'm all for peace and non-violence, but I don't see secession going well with non-violence.

[SnuggleyJeff]

It would be interesting to see how they would handle a very large number of non violent activists during said secession, and how the national media might report on it.  I think it could work if there were large enough numbers of people actively resisting.  The question is how many would it require?

Another interesting question is what would the ramifications be following a successful secession. 

The USA's media would likley try to downplay the economic boom that would certainly follow (in NH, not USA). 

[FreeJohn]

A large number couldn't hurt, but I still see the tyrannical USA thinking they should own that seceding land mass, so they'll put up a fight, I think. I see both major party's news stations declaring that the secession is bad and will try to rally everybody against the Liberty minded seceding NH, in this example. With the media, the US would have support of war on a peaceful new nation.

[alisium]

I don't see why Liberty and force cannot coexist. If you feel that strongly about the issue, and so do your fellow citizens then secede and be prepared to defend your new found Liberty with martial force.

Most of us would shoot an intruder rather than allow them to invade our homes. We would not peacefully protest a home-invasion. Your new nation is your home just the same. I am not understanding this naive notion that one can never pick up arms to defend what is theirs.

The Federal government will react to a state full of peaceful activist with force. You will be sanctioned against, arrested, quarantined and even murdered. If you do not respond in kind, your adventure is over. And the rest of us, your neighbors and children are worse for wear.

[SnuggleyJeff]

I don't see why Liberty and force cannot coexist. If you feel that strongly about the issue, and so do your fellow citizens then secede and be prepared to defend your new found Liberty with martial force.

Most of us would shoot an intruder rather than allow them to invade our homes. We would not peacefully protest a home-invasion. Your new nation is your home just the same. I am not understanding this naive notion that one can never pick up arms to defend what is theirs.

The Federal government will react to a state full of peaceful activist with force. You will be sanctioned against, arrested, quarantined and even murdered. If you do not respond in kind, your adventure is over. And the rest of us, your neighbors and children are worse for wear.

I agree with you 100%.  However, a violent secession would be short lived, and end very badly for the folks in the Shire, I'd suspect.  So when discussing the possibility, it's my opinion that a non violent secession is the only possible, even if extremely unlikely, way.  

In my case it's not because of pacifism, I'm just trying to speculate on how it might be successful.  I don't know anything about military strategy, and I ask this in earnest.  Could NH possibly survive a violent succession?

[alisium]

Forgive me, I'm typing as I'm thinking so this may come out disjointed.

I honestly don't know how a peaceful secession would work. Maybe as non-participation. Everyone in the government and civil populace would just have to refuse to go along with any federal mandates, laws and regulations. Sherriffs have the right to remove federal employees from the county. State police could block access to federal workers as well.

That's how it would start... and it's not a bad way to start.

I just think that it wouldn't be long before you saw the BATF, FBI, US Marshals, Homeland Security  and other such organizations coming in with guns. (The military, I'm shaky on. I know first hand there a lot in the military that would refuse to raise a hand against a fellow American Citizen - but that's during a Katrina like event, secession, I'm not so sure about).

I also think that if it were to come to that, you're going to have more than NH giving the federal government troubles. There most assuredly be other states, parts of states and civil groups that would take similar actions.

I think the best move is not to secede at all, but to merely nullify the federal government. I'm sure that is something you'd get a sizable majority of the states to go along and it would all but destroy the powers of the central government and return to a situation where it is no more than a tool for the states to work together.

[alaric89]

http://bbs.freetalklive.com/general/don't-initiate-violence/

[alisium]

I don't think anyone (me in particular) is advocating violence. Only reacting to it.

And it said case, if a state were to secede it won't be individuals or millitia groups responding, it'll be the state... same as before.

And my personal desire it to see states simply ignore (as they are starting to) the mandates of the central government and reassert their powers under the Constittion. All the powers they have wilfully turned over in the past century for $$$ from the populace.

Yes, I realize that the states are little better than the federal government, but a populace has much more control over a local state government.

[Bitscrambler]

I believe some of the original signing states put language in reserving the right to secede. what is the legality of it? I would think that it would have to begin with nullification and then progress to some sort of legal challenges.

What if a State pulled this off? Would not the USA have to settle a few accounts with the leaving state? Perhaps assess that states share of the national debt. Would they make the new state a debtor state that must buy essentially everything from the Feds? Some states have more Federal land than State owned land.

[alaric89]

The people who depend on the state have weapons that are horrible. Many leaches are evil enough to use them. Most of the actual soldiers are cowardly enough to blindly follow orders, those that stand up will be shot or tortured and demonised ala Bradley Manning. No individual state could defend itself from the feds in a physical fight.

[alisium]

Bitscrambler:

I am woefully undereducated on the matter of secession, but...

The question of secession was settled in 1869 in Texas V. White. Basically, no it's not legal for any state to secede.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White

[alisium]

The people who depend on the state have weapons that are horrible.

I'm not sure what this part of your response is supposed to mean. Surely, if your state, at yours and your fellow citizens behest, were to secede, surely it would then be a joint venture and you would expect it to help secure your new found freedom from the Federal government.

At your direction the state government secedes. At your direction the state government defends. I'm sure you could addy up and pitch in (should if you really belived in it).

Or do you expect your state government to secede and let you liberty loving freedom fighters handle the rest with your sit-ins?

Many leaches are evil enough to use them.

???
 

Most of the actual soldiers are cowardly enough to blindly follow orders, those that stand up will be shot or tortured and demonised ala Bradley Manning.

1. I dare say you don't know many American military members or veterans. If you sat and had meaningful conversations with them you'd have a different opinion of them.

2. What Mr. Manning did was not brave or heroic. He did that out of anger and frustration over his own personal issues. Like so many other stupid people do when they're having relationship issues or are pissed at their boss. In this case Mr. Mannin was both. His actions were utterly selfish. You may like the results but do not assign nobility to what he did.

No individual state could defend itself from the feds in a physical fight.

Well no shit.

Apparently no group of states can either.

I don't think any state will sucessfully secede ever. Instead they'll either reassert their own powers or the federal government will lead us all down a particularly scary path. One that I belive will end up in a complete collapse of everything. In which case the dreams of secession become a moot point.

More likely what is going to happen is another civil war, not really based on geography, but rather demographics and ideaology. Race v. Race, Left v. Right, urban v. rural etc. It's going to be a goddamned mess and states are going to have little or nothing to do with it.

[Defendant]

Welcome, new guy. 

Your opinions are in conflict with the majority.  Care to introduce yourself?