Is Hellbilly racist?

[dalebert]

Okay, so what I've heard so far from direct quotes that were dredged up recently, correct me if I'm wrong...

Black/white couples are overwhelmingly unstable. Is that the way you put it? Or is it specifically black males with white females and not the other way around? You challenged WTFK to produce a B/W couple that wasn't who weren't celebrities. I'm doing my best to accurately reflect what was said.

There is a disproportionate amount of violence coming from black people on a per capita basis, including upon other black people.

You seem desperate to discuss these subject calmly and unemotionally. You brought these up. What are the points you're trying to make with these statements? What do you think the reasons are?

[anarchir]

I thought it has been long determined that he was?

"I'm not racist but....let me focus on these racial statistics for way too long and in irrelevant moments."

[Bill Brasky]

A few years ago, (okay, a decade), one of my best friends was a black man married to a white woman.  And these people weren't kids.  They had a twenty year marriage, 2 kids, and were married long before it was acceptable - in the real sense.  They took a lot of shit about it, especially the woman.  She was a cool lady, and I can't imagine the number of times she felt hurt by assholes throwing darts at her back, or saying shitty things about her kids.

I'm assuming they're still together.  By the way, they were both successful, classy, cultured, and very cool. 

He was sort of a mentor to me, and usually the guy I'd go to when I had personal problems.  He could take a joke, but the hardship of his life reflected to wisdom.  I used to bust his balls all the time about being black, called him SugarBear and shit like that, ask him if I could "see it", y'know...  "it". 

I like a joke as much as the next guy, and am guilty of being edgy with humor.  But I think humor comes from a mental place, and I don't particularly like how some people's mental places are all fucked up.

People yell and make endless points about stereotypes, but the truth of stereotypes is, they're kinda true - otherwise they wouldn't exist.  Cultural diversity is real, and thats where the stereotypes come from.

I'll use Southern Whites as an example - many of them like guns, hunting, and Nascar.  And I mean a LOT.  Therefore, the stereotype is essentially accurate.  And theres nothing really wrong with it, as long as you keep perspective about it - not ALL people fit the stereotypes.  Even if you haven't met one who breaks the stereotype.

You can indeed bring it up, because it's semi-valid.  But what matters is how you bring it up, and how you recognize that it's not accurate in every situation.  And if it makes you feel revulsion, or a sense of weird hate-filled obsession - simply avoid it.  In life, theres lots of things we, as individuals, don't like. 

I think people should get out of their little holes and explore the world a little.  It'll make a better person out of ya.

I just don't like scumbags, and they come in every color, sexual orientation, and religion. 

This race stuff is very difficult to define, which is the perfect medium for argument junkies who love to play word games.  It all comes back - for me - to the old stand-by from SCOTUS justice Potter Stewart.  "I know it when I see it."  What I don't know is, why people have to continually revisit the same old bullshit - and all I can come up with is to entertain themselves with an obsessive argument, at the expense of others. 

I suggest those people work out their own demons in private.  Live in a place (both in reality and online) where it doesn't effect them, and get on with their lives.  Leave the social commentary to people who aren't hate-mongers.  You aren't really "standing up" for anything, free speech being the furthest from it.  What you're actually doing is advancing litigious muck-rakers who will work it into laws, schools, workplaces, media, and never let it rest.  As the smarter half of civilization advances, they become MORE tolerant, not less.

[Cognitive Dissident]

I thought it has been long determined that he was?

"I'm not racist but....let me focus on these racial statistics for way too long and in irrelevant moments."

That's about it.  I was confident I could find "racialistic" posts, if not downright nasty ones, because I've seen too much of the attitude you referenced.  Sadly, I didn't have the 90 minutes I spent digging them up, but I was challenged and put my time/money where my mouth was.

Oh, and for what it's worth, all the interracial couples I've known enough about to call "stable" or "unstable" had been together for a long time when I met them.  This includes two black/white couples.  I don't know any black/white couples that split up (beyond just dating, which would include me.)  I accept that this is a minuscule sample, and possibly unrepresentative, but I also think the opposite assertion is bullshit that probably represents the mindset of the speaker ("it would be unstable in my world.")

That said, I've heard the same things other people have about foreign brides, even through my foreign-born wife.  The thing is, this is just as true about same-race foreign brides, such as Russian "mail-order" brides.

I'll also agree that many stereotypes have some basis in truth.  On the other hand, people tend to behave as they're expected to behave (the liberty loving type may be genuinely different in some ways, or maybe not) and contribute to stereotypes, as well as having expectations that contribute to such behavior in a vicious negative cycle.  In this way, the negative stereotypes can lead to collectivist thinking, and then collectivist actions--many of which are not as subtle as the rest of this.

This is all kinda interesting, because I've had a post-it note on my computer for several weeks now, since the issue of libertarianism vs racism (and "racist libertarians"--or racists who think they're libertarians) came up in the context of the asshole who wrote "racialistic" comments in some of Ron Paul's newsletters.  

The idea of "separatist liberty," if you want to call it that, probably needs to be discussed, but I think people are afraid to discuss it openly.  It immediately made me think of the Stormfront types who've run off to white paradises in places like Northern Idaho (where I've been.)  Some of these people think they should be free to be separate.  That's fine, but as some respond to religion, I don't like their prosthelytizing--that, and as I've posted elsewhere, I've come to see the collectivism as harmful.  Of course, separatists of all types tend to carry all sorts of negative baggage with them (perhaps that baggage is what causes them to be separatist.)

[Turd Ferguson]

I'll keep this short because I have to go to work.(boo)

I dont think Hellbilly is a racist at all. I DO think he is biased against black culture, specifically "thug" type culture, which just happens to be prevalent among black people. There are white people that are into that culture as well, and I would bet he dislikes those people just as much.

I had a friend, my best friend in the world, from the age of around 13 till about six years ago who was a black guy and he pretty much lived at my house, till he ran off to Florida to be with some skank he met on Yahoo Chat a few years back. (bad move James, as it turns out).  He was the same way. He disliked "ghetto hood rat" (his term, not mine) culture more than just about anyone I know. I remember countless nights of us getting high at my place and James doing impressions of rap/thug type dudes, pulling his pants down to his knees, turning his hat sideways and saying stuff in that stereotypical voice like "THATS RIGHT MUH FUCK, THE WHITE MAN STILL STEPPIN' ON MY NECK!"

He thought it made black people look bad, which to some extend I understood, but at the same time I realize its lumping everyone together unfairly. Was James a racist because of his views on black culture, even though he was a black guy himself? I dont think so. He didn't hate his own skin color. Maybe it unfairly assumes its a solely black thing, which might seem racist when you really get right down to it, but I just think its more of a cultural/environmental thing more than simply a critique on skin color.

I think thats where Hellbilly is coming from. I dont know. Thats just what I take from him.

Seems a bit of a witch-hunt to me trying to box him in as a racist. A culturalist? Sure I'd agree with that.



I know what im saying here is gonna get me shit on, well maybe, but thats just how I see it.




WHITE POWER!!!





JK

[Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)]

I think quickmike called it.  I share that same perspective as well and have had a few of the same experiences too (minus my male friends pulling their pants down).

Just about sounds correct to me.

Culturalism is actually acceptable though because culture can be chosen.  "Race" cannot.

PS: I don't agree with the white power quote.

[Tom Foppiano]

I like Mike...not the pretend white power thing. I like that Mike defended someone who was being called a racist even though he now faces the possibility of being labeled a racist.

[Cognitive Dissident]

Mike was speaking objectively.  Though we don't entirely agree, I respect his opinion, and more importantly, his right to express it responsibly.

[alaric89]

I donno he shouldn't have called that chick a "skank". Stephanie is going to be all in here and bust em.
I think Quickmike is a sexist.

[Bill Brasky]

...but I just think its more of a cultural/environmental thing more than simply a critique on skin color.

I think thats where Hellbilly is coming from. I dont know. Thats just what I take from him.

Seems a bit of a witch-hunt to me trying to box him in as a racist. A culturalist? Sure I'd agree with that.

I agree with that, actually.

My disagreement with the situation comes into play where the line is blurred between contempt and obsessiveness.  Plus, using it repetitively to the extreme as argument bait. 

Obsessions are, by definition, mentally unhealthy.  People can be food-obsessed, sex-obsessed, video game obsessed, job obsessed...  none of it is good.  In the most general sense, it is hypomania. 

Usually, such people who find themselves in psychotherapy for whatever basket of reasons, the shrink will tell them to get an unrelated hobby.  The old cliche "try building birdhouses" applies.

Unfortunately, this *IS* his version of downtime and distraction, as it is for many of us. 

...And before anyone jumps all over my shit, I'm not saying he is nuts.  But I can look at it from my perspective, and wonder if I would consider myself to have a problem if I were to obsessively churn the place into an uproar when repeatedly asked to find a different topic. 

[hellbilly]

I'll do my best to reply to everyone's questions and address assumptions, though I hope the assumptions are kept to a minimum.

For anyone who's already convinced I'm a racist, give it a rest. You've had 6 years or so to prove it after making endless accusations. There's a whole team of you so, if you all are correct, it should be easy. This is nothing more than the "When did you stop beating your wife" thing (I didn't connect that so thanks to the guy who pointed that out). I don't start shit with people. I say what's on my mind. If you don't like it, prove me wrong or get over it. There were opportunities for me to initiate aggression against some of you, I passed. I could have picked a side and joined in making fun of you, but in general I don't participate in that shit. To name names, that's Shaw and WTFK.

WTFK - you tried. Find proof or drop it. I'm not one to report anything at all ever to the Mods (not that it would do any good) but sooner or later you will have to find a way to exist without having proven me racist. Think what you will of me, I don't care. I don't care if anyone thinks I'm a racist. Read my words and see if they align with the facts.

Brasky - it's a good time to name names. Your post contains a lot of "some people's" "people" ..stuff like "I think people should get out of their little holes and explore the world a little.  It'll make a better person out of ya." If you mean me, say so. To answer that specifically as if it were addressing me - I don't have a lot of "close" friends. I do know a lot of people though from places like Serbia, Romania, a great gal from Bulgaria living in Spain.. Jamaica.. all over. I live in a city, on the side of town where diversity couldn't be avoided even if one wanted to. I like 80% of the locals here. I don't "explore" the world, as recommended by you, in order to find diverse experiences, I am living the experiences and having the experiences find me.

anarchir - if you thought it had already been determined, and are now wondering if the accusations are true, perhaps you should read my posts and figure it out for yourself.

You won't find anyone more open and consistent about his ideas about race than me. Look into my post history and find out for yourself. I am not desperate to talk about it but I am definitely drawn to the topic. There is no taboo whatsoever in this topic for me, I'm not shy about saying exactly what I think and if I'm proven wrong I'll own up to it. Some love to talk about guns, some weed, video games - whatever. For me, the broad topic is culture. Within that topic, I like the seedier elements - more specifically I like to explore the delusions and dementia within cultures that are on the decline. Currently and historically. You can compare it to Witkin's preference in subject matter in his photography.

I won't be addressing anyone who makes idle accusations any longer unless they bring proof or if they want me to answer a specific issue.

I really appreciate Dale starting this thread and those of ya who are speaking up for me. Thanks also to those of you who are neutral and/or not participating because you don't give a shit or have mad up your mind already.
 
I'll have to break this up into smaller posts - and I don't want to type up long entries like this. Gas man is here. I also don't plan on asking any questions so it doesn't get dragged out.

[Cognitive Dissident]

I did find proof.  You lost already.

I don't care if anyone thinks I'm a racist.

Obviously, that's what all the time and effort of your posts has been about.

[dalebert]

God damn it. Everyone who replied to the post that was directed at Hellbilly, you made it convenient for him to completely ignore the questions asked in the OP.

Hellbilly, you've been raging that people won't post proof. I took two things from direct quotes that appear pretty overtly racist to give you a chance to explain your POV. I asked you two very simple questions to finally give you the opportunity you claim you've been dying to have to discuss the subject calmly and without emotion and when you finally got around to posting in a thread directed specifically to you, you completely dodged those questions.

The original post is fairly succinct. Two simple questions! Now I think you may be both racist and a troll and in the running to be a politician.

[Turd Ferguson]

I donno he shouldn't have called that chick a "skank". Stephanie is going to be all in here and bust em.
I think Quickmike is a sexist.

Seems we have two choices here, my friend. In the spirit of equality, I can call you a skank too, just so its equal and nobody gets sore at me, or I can call her a "whore" instead of a skank. Problem with the second choice is that she wasn't a whore at all. She provided her services for free, so I can hardly be honest and call her that.

[hellbilly]

God damn it. Everyone who replied to the post that was directed at Hellbilly, you made it convenient for him to completely ignore the questions asked in the OP.

Hellbilly, you've been raging that people won't post proof. I took two things from direct quotes that appear pretty overtly racist to give you a chance to explain your POV. I asked you two very simple questions to finally give you the opportunity you claim you've been dying to have to discuss the subject calmly and without emotion and when you finally got around to posting in a thread directed specifically to you, you completely dodged those questions.

The original post is fairly succinct. Two simple questions! Now I think you may be both racist and a troll and in the running to be a politician.

Dale, chill out. I thanked you for staring the thread and said I have to post in smaller chunks. No one wants to read a wall of text but I want to be reasonably thorough plus I have some shit going on. I wanted to brush off people who obviously are not posting in the thread to say anything new - in order to avoid a rehash of the same.

I honestly don't care if I'm called a racist but I'm not running from it either.

Black/white couples are overwhelmingly unstable. Is that the way you put it?

Almost. Most importantly keep in mind that I frame almost all comments like the following specifically referencing ghetto people. All ghetto people. Except latinas and, of course, those who are there because they've reached the end of the line. I lived in the ghetto for a year or two and made sure I got the fuck out. I'm referring to people who don't care if they're ghetto or maybe even gloat about it, not those who are havin hard luck. And of course young children. I'm not going to attach a disclaimer like that every time I post though.

An example of who I'm not referring to are latinas. When I drive through the ghetto I see latinas in their work uniforms at the bus stop. Or I see them sweeping the stairs or stoops. With very few exceptions everyone else, of all colors, ethnicity whatever, are doing typical ghetto shit. If anyone is unaware of what constitutes "doing typical ghetto shit" they shouldn't be posting in this thread. Instead they should go explore the world and become familiar with new experiences.

I make no apologies for not liking ghetto people or for using sarcastic/stinging humor at their expense. They're almost the worst of society and ultimately a drain on everything. Also note that I am not talking about poor people. I grew up in Appalachia, lived in a trailer across from a coal mine where my dad worked. There's an open opportunity for an asshole to crack a joke by the way. None of the many poor people I knew (and still know some) act ghetto. Actually.. some do. Totally ghetto but in image only. That's possible another topic as well -- ghetto rednecks whom I also don't like. And not all people in the ghetto are poor.

I wouldn't give a shit about ghetto people if 1)they weren't so violent 2)I weren't forced to help pay for their existence. But they are and I do.

I'm in the ghetto almost daily because my son's school is located in one. (Could be a separate thread but I'll answer why if you want.) But because I've been there almost daily both morning and afternoon I'm totally familiar with the patterns.

So no one accuses me of dodging- how does "ghetto" incorporate "blacks"? Most ghetto people around me are black. I have been to ghettos that are primarily white (they are called River Rats in Southern GA. again, a separate thread). Most of the ghetto culture I see has been created by black folks, with other individuals desperate for an identity happy to latch on to something.

OK so..

My words:

From my near daily drives through the ghetto you're analysis of fat white girls who like to gobble down black dicks is precise. I have seen some thin white girls with black dudes too, but they have the appearance of being on a Meth diet. It's totally a win win situation as the black guy gets a social promotion and the white girl gets to pretend that she's truly cherished by a man.

The only women I know personally who have fucked black guys all seem a little screwed up. But I'll admit it - I'm a separatist. I do not mix with upper class people. So I don't personally know any white women who are attractive, wealthy, well balanced and somehow have just met the perfect black guy to settle down with.

I think this quote is in response to a post from Richard. I am not sure but you can check with my archivist, Ken.

Specifically black male and white female couples in the ghetto. The "social promotion" is true. I think I first heard someone mention this back in the O.J. trial days. They were wondering if the same thing applied to O.J. since he was more popular than his white wife. Fat white women are looked down on by a lot of white men. A lot of white men would rather be single and jerk off all the time rather than settle for a fat white gal. But big ladies need lovin too and black guys love the booty ..or so I've been told... and plus that sensual social taboo exists and so they hook up. Mutual satisfaction.. at least until the black guy moves on, leaving his offspring in the hands of an unstable mess. Surely no one can deny that absentee fathers are a big problem in the ghetto. Do to drugs? Sure. I'm totally against drug laws. But that's another thread. And it isn't just white ladies left behind, plenty of black ladies too - and the ones I know are bitter about it.

Note that I'm poking some fun at white people too.

Do true love stories exist inside ghettos? Undoubtedly, somewhere. I doubt these stories lie with the ladies I see stumbling out of the bushes in hot pants and a long fake fur coat.

Or is it specifically black males with white females and not the other way around?

Ken, my archivist, located a helpful resource (I believe) in a thread where I compared these varieties. BM+WF couples that I've seen, in the ghetto, are as described above. WM+BF is a whole new deal. I see this variety in health food stores, Barnes & Noble, coffee shops, etc. It's whole new dynamic that I am completely unfazed by because these couples seem to be on the upswing of things. They seem well balanced and I wish nothing but the best for them.

There is a disproportionate amount of violence coming from black people on a per capita basis, including upon other black people.

Duly noted. I shall endeavor to remember this.

What are the points you're trying to make with these statements?

I'm an observer mostly. On many different cultural/social things. It's not like I'm ruled by these thoughts though I fully admit I think about this shit more than most people. Typically I do not start a thread on these topics but I'll almost always contribute to the discussion. I get annoyed when people who are supposedly so skilled in seeing through bullshit give me grief about it. I'm called a "collectivist" by people who constantly talk ahit about cops, lawyers and politicians. Regarding the Free State Project I heard Ian say something like "It's just a bunch of us white guys up here. We need more diversity!"Not only is that collectivist but... why the self deprecation? Congratulate yourselves on being a core group of guys trying to start something big. If there is something wrong with being "just a bunch of white guys" the let me know.

So mostly what I do is point out the idiocy of self-effacing white people rather than focus on the shortcomings of black people. If not "mostly" then I'd say it's pretty balanced.

What do you think the reasons are?

Too many variables.

One worth mentioning is welfare. Before welfare the black man had a leadership role in his home. Believe it or not there were many successful blacks before the days of welfare. They had a family unit, etc. Yes, there were many obstacles against them - really bad conditions for many - another separate thread. The popular image presented is that all blacks were poor and abused until the good graces of the white man and his welfare came to the rescue.. that isn't the case.

So, the theory presented to me by my old acquaintance, a black supremacist, was this simple one:
Welfare paid ladies to have babies. This increased the voting base of the politicians enacting the welfare laws and made them look good by helping the poor. A condition of receiving welfare is that the father of the kids couldn't live there. So.. the state became head of household. The men could then father more kids with other women for more money. So in the end the fathers traded responsibility for convenience and here we are today.

After mentioning the black supremacist yesterday I thought more about him today. We worked together in a sort of factory environment. He carried a book around that was all about Nubian culture, how Nubians were the master race or something that had been wiped out by Europeans. It was a sorta weird brand of Afrocentric conspiracy theory stuff. But we had a lot of good talks and with no reservations and no shit slinging and no whining. He made his points, I made mine. We got along fine.