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Author Topic: Freedom of travel along property borders.  (Read 6133 times)

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Alex Libman

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Freedom of travel along property borders.
« on: July 28, 2010, 07:06:50 PM »

First, a disclaimer: this is yet another one of my experimental borderline-minarchist  (no pun intended) idea threads along the same lines as many other thought experiments I've started in the past (ex. Parents Tax).  It might seem like a copout to the "who will build the roads" nonsense, but it's more of a contingency plan / safety valve just in case we are wrong, so please don't call me a statist just for contemplating this.  This is also more of a 19th century idea than a 21st century one, because flying cars would solve the vast majority of transportation access issues, but it nonetheless may be an idea worth considering.

Now, this idea, in its entirely, is that there are natural limits to ownership of land imposed by other people's Right to travel.  Every piece of property of sufficient size must be surrounded by an "unownable" perimeter area about as wide as a modern highway.  Continuous pieces of property larger than X acres must also be separated into pieces of property X acres or less by allowing such "unownable" transport corridors.  Let's call those perimeter areas "open roads".

The rules of the "open road" would be analogous to other environments where property ownership is presently impossible, including air flyover rights above several hundred yards.  No one can homestead this property except perhaps by buying up the surrounding property and providing a different "open road" that fits the geographic criteria of other people's Right to travel.  NAP still applies, obviously, but any action that impedes other people's Right to travel constitutes an act of aggression.  People may leave pieces of their property on the "open road" only when it doesn't interfere with other people's Right to travel, which means nearby residential and business interests would be interested in leaving things like pavement, electrical / communications wiring, light poles, cameras with "open source" video feeds to ensure law and order, and so on.  Damaging those privately-added road infrastructure components would constitute an act of aggression against the person who left them there, or against the Rights of a subsequent traveler.  A lot of the ideas of how automotive road rules can be facilitated without a centralized authority have been discussed elsewhere (ex).
« Last Edit: July 28, 2010, 07:10:26 PM by Alex Libman »
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theskywizard

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Re: Freedom of travel along property borders.
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2010, 09:15:42 PM »

Every piece of property of sufficient size must be surrounded by an "unownable" perimeter area about as wide as a modern highway. Continuous pieces of property larger than X acres must also be separated into pieces of property X acres or less by allowing such "unownable" transport corridors.  Let's call those perimeter areas "open roads". 
why? I could see this being somewhat reasonable if the main source of travel was by foot, but since automobiles currently are, I dont see a valid reason for an easement around every "large" piece of property. Besides if someone owned such a large piece of property they would most likely create a "road" around said property if needed. I would imagine most roads were built to provide transportation of two things, products and people, so I dont care for the idea of "x acres must be seperated into pieces of property x acres or less..."

Basically I would say roads are built for a purpose, so I dont leaving the placement of them up to a mathematical formula.
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Alex Libman

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Re: Freedom of travel along property borders.
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2010, 12:23:53 AM »

I guess it's just a contingency plan if neither free market roads nor flying cars work out someplace / sometime / for some reason.

Hey, once, when I was running an itty bitty programming group back in high school, I wrote a 3-page rant on why people should use inequality operators in control loops instead of equality operators (ex. because if their source code is ever put on a satellite in close orbit around the sun, and a once-in-ten-thousand-years solar storm produces gamma radiation waves that have random bit-flipping effects on CPU registers, then the former method would be more reliable).  Safety first!  :lol:
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anarchir

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Re: Freedom of travel along property borders.
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2010, 02:01:58 AM »

I think this is a non-issue. The only people who would have a problem with their "Right" to travel would be those who are on a piece of property entirely surrounded by another property, and that other property refuses them access to leave? That sounds like imprisonment to me, which violates the NAP.

Does that sound right?
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John Shaw

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Re: Freedom of travel along property borders.
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2010, 02:08:35 AM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easement

Already been covered for centuries in common law, with and without government enforcement. 
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Alex Libman

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Re: Freedom of travel along property borders.
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2010, 02:56:07 AM »

John Shaw wins again!  :D

It's like that time I invented this circular device that is capable of rotating on an axle through its center, facilitating transportation while supporting a load...  I was gonna market it as Alex Libman's Round Thingie, even shot a 90-minute infomercial and everything...  but -- bummer -- it turned out someone else already called it a "wheel"...  :lol:


OK, now seriously - do "easement" access rights exist by default?  In a free society, can I just walk along the edge of someone's property line?  How wide is this "edge"?  If I walk there every day, can I pave it and install streetlights?  Etc.
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Alex Libman

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Re: Freedom of travel along property borders.
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2010, 09:30:41 PM »

Do "easement" access rights exist by default?  In a free society, can I just walk along the edge of someone's property line?  How wide is this "edge"?  If I walk there every day, can I pave it and install streetlights?  Etc.

(BUMP)
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mrapplecastle

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Re: Freedom of travel along property borders.
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2010, 06:24:49 PM »

if you're walking, its doubtful you're gonna have the money for concrete and streetlights
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Freedom of travel along property borders.
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2010, 06:36:35 PM »

Do "easement" access rights exist by default?  In a free society, can I just walk along the edge of someone's property line?  How wide is this "edge"?  If I walk there every day, can I pave it and install streetlights?  Etc.

(BUMP)


The are people who did that in my community.

Monsey grew faster than the government anticipated, and as a result, there were not enough sidewalks in a community where everyone has to walk at least once a week. People donated land to be used to get around, and over time, others invested in improving that donated land into a pretty good way of getting around.
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Stoker

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Re: Freedom of travel along property borders.
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2010, 06:50:16 PM »

I have mixed feelings about easements. I prospect for gold, and often knowing where you are, or having no other option that crossing private property to access Federal Land, you can find yourself on someone elses property. Most folks are pretty cool about this sort of thing, but I think the option of not allowing people to cross ones property is a right of property ownership. There are plenty of situations where a property owner does not want people on his property, whatever the trespassers intent. This is a privilege of ownership, and I for one want the right to tell anyone I please to stay off of my property.
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Freedom of travel along property borders.
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2010, 07:04:21 PM »

I have mixed feelings about easements. I prospect for gold, and often knowing where you are, or having no other option that crossing private property to access Federal Land, you can find yourself on someone elses property. Most folks are pretty cool about this sort of thing, but I think the option of not allowing people to cross ones property is a right of property ownership. There are plenty of situations where a property owner does not want people on his property, whatever the trespassers intent. This is a privilege of ownership, and I for one want the right to tell anyone I please to stay off of my property.

I imagine easements being useful as a legal tool where someone originally let others pass through in areas where land was parceled out and built around such arrangements. Would prevent a situation where people do stuff like build walls around other peoples property.
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Alex Libman

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Re: Freedom of travel along property borders.
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2010, 11:23:27 PM »

if you're walking, its doubtful you're gonna have the money for concrete and streetlights

I got rid of my car for tax resistance / agorism purposes, and it also helped me lose weight.

What I was asking was a broader question of how to resolve the commie paradox of someone having the "right to travel" along a path where no one is directly incentivized to build any infrastructure.  In most cases these things would probably work themselves out, with property owners wanting to look good in front of their neighbors, but many owners would not want to encourage just anyone to travel paths around / through their property, even though everyone supposedly has this "right"...


[...] There are plenty of situations where a property owner does not want people on his property  [...]

This is why I think "easement" / "right to travel" needs to be more structured along specific routes, where property owners are required to divide their land into blocks no more than X meters long / wide (like city blocks, but in the country they can be much larger), and allow a free space Y meters wide between them.

I think this would only apply in rural areas anyway, because all densely populated regions would probably be governed by charter cities, neighborhood associations, and so forth.
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yamnuska

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Re: Freedom of travel along property borders.
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2010, 12:00:58 AM »




OK, now seriously - do "easement" access rights exist by default?  In a free society, can I just walk along the edge of someone's property line?  How wide is this "edge"?  If I walk there every day, can I pave it and install streetlights?  Etc.


Depends on the country, in the UK people have the right to travel because of "everyman's right," or "freedom to roam."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam

It won't neccessrily cover everything but may set a precedent. It mainly covers public land but then again the largest landowner in many countries is the government. As for easements they are usually in place so that the government can build infrastructure in the future, it's BS but in general that's why easements exist in theory. The stupid part is you usually have to maintain said easement if it's by your property but yet try and plant a crop or do something else on said easement and you're fined.

On another note and I don't mean to hijack this thread, but I post on another BBS and some twit posted this, I'm currently trying to think up a decent response.

"in regards to governments (from yesterday), it seems to me that

1. no sophisticated private enterprise existed before formation of sophisticated governments

2. no sophisticated private enterprise ever existed outside jurisdictions of sophisticated governments

3. all governments around the world largely have departments that serve the same functions

4. if you get rid of your own government, somebody else’s will be imposed on you

am I correct?"
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anarchir

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Re: Freedom of travel along property borders.
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2010, 01:32:55 AM »

if you're walking, its doubtful you're gonna have the money for concrete and streetlights

I got rid of my car for tax resistance / agorism purposes, and it also helped me lose weight.

I'm thinking of doing the same. For various/similar reasons. If I get the new job I want, I betcha I can.
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Alex Libman

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Re: Freedom of travel along property borders.
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2010, 04:41:48 AM »

Go for it.  It would probably be easier for you, because I am an atrophied fatass, and I now live in the middle of nowhere.  My trunk is now my backpack.
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